Author Topic: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction  (Read 13304 times)

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Adding the E Field Probe... a first impression primer...
We'll evolve / correct this as we go with info, tips, etc....hopefully.
It's different! ... and this is based on initial 'experimentation'...   
Updated: 5/25/14 :spectrum comparison:  :operation:  :enter your antenna type!:
Updated: 5/27/14 :filters description :roll: : signals example image : system gain and filter specifications :
Updated: 6/1/14 :qualification sentence modified under "suggested initial settings" regarding filters
Updated: 6/10/14 :qualification sentence added under "operation with automatic and filters" stating return to full 'manual' mode for operation
Updated: 6/17/14 :Simplified threshold set up --- thanks Don Froula, sta 681.

Two Important Notes!
1. Please use controller Amplifier 2 for E fields... that insures the signals displayed are shown in consistent colors. We'll then expect H field signals (Amplifier 1) to be Red and Green (with Channel C yellow normally not shown) and E field signals to be Magenta, Blue(Teal) and Orange. Avoids confusion if we're trying to help you.

2. Make sure you are not running a second Power Supply into your new Amp, other than for initial build test. Only the Controller supply is required, and the 2nd power supply will cause all kinds of issues... especially since it will likely affect the HP filter in addition to working against your primary controller supply.


Looking at signals:
Here's what we've become used to with H field only: 2 Channels with directivity at right angles. Amplifier 1


When we first add the E field probe we'll see this: 5 Channels directivity - any direction! Amplifiers 1 and 2


Here's the E Field alone: 3 Channels directivity unknown. Amplifier 2

One of the first things we notice is it may be difficult to locate an E field noise source, since we are missing one clue available with the H field directional loops... we can't get pointed in a line to begin source location and identification. Those of us who've been around awhile understand this, if you're new you may not as yet.

As when we first began with H field only, we need to explore our E field environment, so we need some control over the amps and channels as we optimize and refine over time.

Suggested initial settings:

Run in manual mode. You want control with fixed parameters for awhile.
Turn off (uncheck) "Auto Adapt to Noise" and "Auto Amplitude Filter". If you leave them on the following initial setup may cause confusion. Remember that E field will not be as vulnerable to Magnetic interference, and will exist in its own VLF environment.

A few folks have attempted setup disabling Amp 1 by unplugging the amplifier. I do not suggest this for several reasons not described here. Operate the system under full load, and after making the initial settings, perhaps reduce the gains on Amp 1 to allow Amp 2 to dominate the signal display. You could turn those 2 "autos" back on as you see fit at any time, and see how they perform with the new E field operating alongside H field.

Enablng "Alternate Channel Mapping" allows independent adjustments of both amps' thresholds, which can be bit tricky for the "C" Channels, unless we share Don F's elegant "Keep it Simple" solution:

1. Check (turn on) "Force all channels on" and "apply"
2 Set Amp 1, Channel C to the minimum value, 1mV.
3. Apply, and then "Save Settings".
4. Un-check (turn off) "Force all channels on".
5. Apply, then "Save Settings"
Now, the Amp 2, Channel C threshold will be assured of being the value you set in the Amp 2 settings.

Why do this? If you do not you are likely to assume that you've actually changed Amp 2 Channel C's threshold, because both the settings page, and the signals page information will show you the numbers you've entered. And you'll not notice that the actual DISPLAY trace shows the TRUE operating threshold level for Amp 2 Channel C! This may possibly be addressed in a future firmware update.
(Ref: http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=22710.msg220855#msg220855 Don F. Includes larger explanatory images)



Don't read the following if you're already too confused to proceed...  :twisted:
Other wise go back and start over, or just follow Don's short cut above, and move on.  ;)

Now this gets a bit mind-bending:
We need alternate channel mapping, to be able to manipulate thresholds, and therefore "relative" gains, when we add the E field to an H field setup. When we do this:

Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, that is, thresholds for A and B will become the higher setting originally set for one of the channels. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2.  However, BOTH amps' Channel Cs share the same ADC, and therefore one will assume as it's lowest possible threshold, the highest threshold set in either amp. You cannot set a threshold for 2C, in other words, that is lower than the saved threshold already established for 1C. And vice versa.   Since C isn't used on H field, and the threshold setting isn't visible to you, you must check 'Force all Channels On' to see it. Now you can use Don's method, and complete your E field set up, running E field on Amp 2 as we strongly suggest
.





Moving on:
Note here: E field First Stage amp is shared by all three channels... one adjustment (C) for all. 2nd Stage is individual channel adjustable. The third and final stage gain is fixed at 10 for Channel C, and at 16 for A and B. (In the H Field amp, the final stage is fixed at 40.

One of the issues here initially may be interference mode. The 5x5 gain settings for this location with a 15" 12ga wire probe is quite high enough, so far. It'll pick up signals with higher gains that can't even be located. With any activity within a few hundred miles higher gains are useless. E field is very sensitive to the charges in the clouds, much more so than the H fields.
Courtesy of Richo Anderson and Blitzortung.Org:
E-Field typical Gain Potential  (reason for tight filtering)

I can see one issue easily happening... someone will use a large antenna, and wonder why they have so much 'interference' mode operation. Trust me, that 15" probe is almost too much. With storms within 200 miles, I had its gains down to 2-1... too many signals, too fast... remember, that's really what threshold is responding to.

 Find your recent signal spectrums
lightningmaps.org  /  make sure you log in with your BO username and password / Your Region (America, Europe, Oceania, etc) / Archives / List
   ;) allow patience while server and internet catch up with you...

Most noticeable are the sharp peaks and frequency bands between the 3 channels of the E field system. Theoretically, for example, I believe you can minimize an interference from a source, say at a constant 24kHz, by adjusting the gain and threshold for a particular channel. The filtering built into the E field system is extremely tight and critical. Note that such adjustments are only possible on H field on one channel, in one plane of directivity. Being Omni, and three channels may offer us an opportunity to minimize E field interference by simply determining it's frequency without affecting overall detection range and signal location. Time and experimentation will tell. Cool, huh!
_________________________________

Filters:
     The coax and it's shielding is effectively part of a
High Pass filter > 5 KHz (preamp, coax, amp combined)
     First stage HP filter is in Pre-Amp, third stage in amp.
     50,100,150,200,250 Hz is effectively attenuated
     Similar with 60Hz and harmonics
18 KHz
44 KHz
50 KHz
effective channel selectivity
A =    5KHz     23KHz
B =  18KHz     44KHz
C =    5KHz     50KHz
_________________________________
Courtesy of Richo Anderson and Blitzortung.Org:
E-field Filter operation (measured at -3db)




The below illustrates differences in 4 stroke signals, from 2 stations approx. 100mi separation N/S.
First in each set, station operates with both E and H fields, alternate channel mapping. Second station operating H field only.



_________________________________


These two videos will illustrate the difference in filtering, with server signals spectrum, between the two
systems. Both amps operating in manual, no filtering, with somewhat reduced gain:

E field Only  Click the image to open player.


H field only Click the image to open player.


Didn't Richo build some great filters???

_________________________________

Update: Here's one on me  ](*,)  One of the guys in Europe, running his E field through input A,... 3 Beautiful signals, except they're Red, Green, and Yellow. Yellow's got a bunch of noise on it, and the whole left side of trace is sinusoidal.  He wants to know what's wrong. Me? Guess what? Looking at Red, Green and Yellow, I'm thinking 'H field' interference, naturally.  :oops:  So comes Tobi... "That's just noise on the Yellow..."....

As I stated earlier: "This Is Different". The above might have been a problem for H field... but was near 'normal' for E field.  :roll:

... and so it begins...
_______________________

---and so it continues:


NOTE: 7/13/2014 --- You CANNOT DISABLE e field signals by checking "don't send" on the settings page. The server wants to see all three channels. Best you can do is set gains to 1x1, thresholds to "0". You can adjust gains.


Operation: May 25, 2014 - linked video may help visualize some of the capababilities and potential of dual operation.
After some experimenting, and familiarization, it appears that running both H field and E field together just screams for an efficient, effective, Automatic Mode. (Which is still BETA, and likely only to enter final efficiency with the next generation of BO Systems)
So, upgrading now to latest firmware, (at the time, 7.05b) in this case, we set and applied
Enable Channel Mapping: On
Gains
1 A and B: 10 * 10
2 A, B, C:  10 * 5
Thresholds
1A, B: 110 mv
2A, B:   90 mv
1C, 2C: 90 mv
Auto Adapt to Noise :  On
Auto Amplitude Filter: On
Remote Control Mode: Automatic.
Saved settings.
And recorded the following video - It will present best if set to full screen when the player opens:
Click the image to open player.
Station 689, Frankfort KY, USA, with light continental activity 1136UTC to 1146UTC 5/25/2014 More notes are below:
NOTE: June 10, 2014
After about 2 weeks operating with filters and "automatic" as outlined above, I did not change my mind on firmware/software operation with some type of "automatic mode". However, I did decide that the present  server and controller firmware, at least for my station and location, actually caused a decrease in overall performance, with the present density of the North American network. So I turned off both the filters, and returned to manual mode with alternate channel mapping. (css)


Unfortunately, there is no split-second time relationship between the signals... Lower right is real-time local controller signal.
Upper left is a 2.5sec interval BO server signal, as is the spectrum on upper right.
Lower left is real-time strokes and station visualization with approximately 5 second delay.
The video should be long enough to get a good idea of how the server and controller will work together to
adjust gains and thresholds as required, with channel mapping and full automatic, even with the present
server algorithms, and controller firmware. Watching the lower right over time and signals note how the
gains and thresholds are varied. Upper left will show you which channel the server is currently selecting
for use 101 indicates used, with the vertical red bar on the TOGA/TOA location. 100 is received, not used.
On the Controller signals page, for those who don't know:
 L = Signal is below the threshold
 P = Signal is below threshold * adjustable_percentage
 S = Spike detected
 M = Amplitude too high (currently not enabled)
 A = Automatic filter by amplitude
 Filters are always on. If a channel is marked red, then it might not be used for sending. Only if the time above the graph is red, the whole signal won't be sent. Some filter flags like "L" or "A" must be present on all channels for that a signal to be NOT sent ("AND" condition). Other's, like "S" need only one filtered channel, and the whole signal won't be sent.

 ________________________________

If you haven't already, you should set your antenna types (Thanks, Don F) Settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:

If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0" There's popup help for the settings. Settings are metric, btw.  It is very important that they be set correctly.

Another setting to make on that page is your City, State, Location...   and if you have a website, that's very cool to enter...


« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 09:37:02 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 01:54:50 PM »
One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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5/24/14  10:00 am, EDT.... Switched to E field only with H field off. Settings are 10*5 and thresholds at 100mv... Threshold of 90 goes interference, with current cell locations...
We'll see how good this sucker is by itself...

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Offline W3DRM

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Mike, should this thread be made a "sticky"?

BTW, a great start and resource for all of us to learn from.  =D>
Don - W3DRM - Minden, Nevada --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KRNO2
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StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, , Win10 Pro
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Mike, should this thread be made a "sticky"?

BTW, a great start and resource for all of us to learn from.  =D>
Dunno, up to admins... and thanks.
One quick point...
While working on the first draft, I noticed an intermittent issue with E field channel A... came and went, distorted, clipped signals.  Being lazy, I took the soldering iron and just touched the tip to all the pins on ICs 7 and 8.  Voila!  How easy can it get????

EDIT: If you look closely at the 2nd signal image, above, all 5 channels... about 132usec see the A Channel (purple) flattened slightly? That's a minor distortion that showed up. Otherwise much more obvious.  :twisted:
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 11:44:58 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »

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Offline dfroula

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Thanks for this! Too cool to resist any longer! I just sent my inquiry off to Egon for my kit, as I finally have the time to build and install the setup.

Don
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Thanks for this! Too cool to resist any longer! I just sent my inquiry off to Egon for my kit, as I finally have the time to build and install the setup.

Don
WD9DMP
Finally found a big enough carrot, huh?

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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An 'addenda' added to 1st post above...  :oops:
Mike

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Offline dfroula

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ROTFLMAO!..... :grin:

Yep....big carrot! Perhaps it will partially compensate for my non-functional AS3935!

[/quote]Finally found a big enough carrot, huh?
[/quote]

Offline dfroula

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Mind-bending indeed! Still trying to wrap my head around this....

So?...

- Once I connect the E-field amp to controller input 2, I can no longer set the channel threshold values for Amp 1 independently? Seems odd....

- If the above is true, how does the auto-noise adjust on the H-field amp (1) deal with the situation?

- Channel C thresholds from Amp 1 and Amp 2 are tied together (same ADC)? The firmware allows channel C threshold setting on either Amp 1 or Amp 2    settings? Or, the Channel C setting on Amp 2 must be >= than the channel C threshold setting on Amp 1, but still independently adjustable? Sounds like some firmware work is needed...

- Why 3 channels for the E-field amp? Different points in the filter chain?

Thanks!

Don
WD9DMP


Now this gets a bit mind-bending, Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, it will become the highest setting originally set for whichever. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2. Channel C shares the same ADC on both amps, and therefore will assume as its low threshold, the highest threshold of 1 ch C, and vice versa. Since C isn't used on H field, you can check 'Force all Channels On' and adjust amp 2 Ch C and/or Amp 1 Ch C thresholds appropriately.  Gains, however are independently adjusted.
So if you cannot lower threshold on E field (Amp 2) channel C, force all channels on, lower amp 1 Ch C, then uncheck force all channels on, and readjust the original A's and B's on both amps to suit.... Channel C on amp 2 should remain at the setting selected. It can be set higher, if memory serves, but not lower... sheesh. And I probably could have explained it better... tough.  :twisted:

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 04:55:46 PM »
Mind-bending indeed! Still trying to wrap my head around this....

So?...

- Once I connect the E-field amp to controller input 2, I can no longer set the channel threshold values for Amp 1 independently? Seems odd....

- If the above is true, how does the auto-noise adjust on the H-field amp (1) deal with the situation?

- Channel C thresholds from Amp 1 and Amp 2 are tied together (same ADC)? The firmware allows channel C threshold setting on either Amp 1 or Amp 2    settings? Or, the Channel C setting on Amp 2 must be >= than the channel C threshold setting on Amp 1, but still independently adjustable? Sounds like some firmware work is needed...

- Why 3 channels for the E-field amp? Different points in the filter chain?

Thanks!


Don
WD9DMP


Now this gets a bit mind-bending, Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, it will become the highest setting originally set for whichever. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2. Channel C shares the same ADC on both amps, and therefore will assume as its low threshold, the highest threshold of 1 ch C, and vice versa. Since C isn't used on H field, you can check 'Force all Channels On' and adjust amp 2 Ch C and/or Amp 1 Ch C thresholds appropriately.  Gains, however are independently adjusted.
So if you cannot lower threshold on E field (Amp 2) channel C, force all channels on, lower amp 1 Ch C, then uncheck force all channels on, and readjust the original A's and B's on both amps to suit.... Channel C on amp 2 should remain at the setting selected. It can be set higher, if memory serves, but not lower... sheesh. And I probably could have explained it better... tough.  :twisted:
Phui.  ](*,) Please don't get me thinking about this again... I like to never figured it this far either.... ](*,)
GAINS for each channel are adjustable, EXCEPT 1st stage A and B of E FIELD, which follow the channel C setting since 1st stage common to all three. 2'nd stages are independent for the three channels, and the final is fixed at 16 instead of 40 as in H field.

Thresholds are the confusion. It helps me to think more in terms of "signals per second" for example rather than any amplitude of signal. (True, more amplitude, more signals, but whatever) The system to the best of my knowledge isn't using any 'amplitude' too strong, as yet, although available.)
So think that the "lower" the thresholds, the more signals per second....

Now with channel mapping, unless I'm losing it somewhere along the way here... Channels A and B of amplifier 1 will share the same ADC, and threshold will be highest of the two.  Channels A and B of amplifier 2 will now share the same ADC, with same operation. Channel C of BOTH 1 and 2 share the same ADC. Again, with highest threshold ruling both C channels.

Without 'Channel Mapping"  Amp 1 channel A and Amp 2 Channel A share the same ADC.   ditto for the B channels. Channel C on both always share the same ADC.

So by channel mapping, changing thresholds affects only E field or H field, rather than specific channels or something like this.l.. I'm getting tired of thinking about it.... ](*,) No matter how I type or think it it still sounds nuts, even as you say...

Somehow I've come to the conclusion that, except for Channel C threshold same on both amps, this sets the two amps independent of each other, rather than mixing channels and thresholds....  Dang it Don!  You had to ask!

As I said above, I have no idea how the auto noise, etc will respond... which is why I suggested going back to basically what we were dealing with when you and I fired up the first couple of Reds... turn off those filters, run pure manual. And we'll all find out.
 
One member asked why I had not updated my firmware, and this 'start up' is the reason,... I sorta know what to expect from B3, so haven't updated to 4 or 5 to keep any other variables off this.,. for now.

Yes, different bandpasses.  Virtually everything above 160kHz is eliminated, and the dropoff at 50kHz is incredibly sharp.
I don't know what the final bp wound up, several were discussed, but I think it's similar to this:
A channel = 8 kHz-23.5 kHz
B channel = 18 kHz-44?kHz
C channel=  8 kHz-30?kHz
Richo was trying so many variations, and types of filters,  but I don't know what the final was...  these are slightly tame feral guesses.

Yes, I can see possible firmware changes, no doubt. But I think a whole lot needs to be done, or simply enabled, on the server. I suspect some
has already been planted in the firmware, and hardware, from what I see of the signal processing, I could be wrong.

I suspect when the boys all get back from Munich tomorrow, and Tobi gets the Lightningmaps.org database back online, and they answer a few hundred Emails apiece, they'll be passing more info...

 

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 09:25:38 AM »
Addenda added to first post:  Tentative Operation Mode:

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Offline dfroula

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 09:36:45 AM »
I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 09:55:32 AM »
Interesting....I had never looked closely at the "channel mapping" feature, as I never had more than one amp connected. The pop-up help on the controller web page describes it as you have - Normally ADC thresholds for channel A and channel B are shared between amp 1 and amp 2 inputs. Enabling channel mapping changes this, sharing a single ADC between channel A and B within each amp input, so the thresholds are locked together. Channel "C" on both amps always share the same ADC, so the threshold settings are always shared as well.

This has to affect the auto-noise feature, as I notice it normally sets a lower overall gain than what is set in the settings and tweaks the effective gain by quickly modifying the threshold settings on each channel. I'll try enabling channel mapping without a second amp and see what the auto-noise feature does. I'm guessing that it will become less responsive, as some common threshold must be determined and the slower gain adjustment will have to be used to tweak the individual channels.

Also, as you say, gains of the amps are not tied to the ADC configuration and can always be adjusted independently, as the gains are not a function of the ADC but of the op-amps themselves.

Making more sense now! Thanks!

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP

Now with channel mapping, unless I'm losing it somewhere along the way here... Channels A and B of amplifier 1 will share the same ADC, and threshold will be highest of the two.  Channels A and B of amplifier 2 will now share the same ADC, with same operation. Channel C of BOTH 1 and 2 share the same ADC. Again, with highest threshold ruling both C channels.

Without 'Channel Mapping"  Amp 1 channel A and Amp 2 Channel A share the same ADC.   ditto for the B channels. Channel C on both always share the same ADC.

So by channel mapping, changing thresholds affects only E field or H field, rather than specific channels or something like this.l.. I'm getting tired of thinking about it.... ](*,) No matter how I type or think it it still sounds nuts, even as you say...

Somehow I've come to the conclusion that, except for Channel C threshold same on both amps, this sets the two amps independent of each other, rather than mixing channels and thresholds....  Dang it Don!  You had to ask!

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 09:57:35 AM »
I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:

If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:59:58 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2014, 10:02:24 AM »
I'm doing a little maintenance work today on my high-def TV antenna and outside amp, adding a 6-foot mast to get a bit better elevation. I've been getting some drop-outs on certain channels depending on weather conditions. I also picked up a bracket for the e-field assembly I have planned.

I'll also run some of the same quad-shield RG6 I used for my ADS-B aircraft radar antenna while I'm up there. I'm relocating my Blitzortung station to a spare kitchen cabinet to accommodate the outdoor E-field antenna.

Don
WD9DMP

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2014, 10:05:00 AM »
Yep, sorry for the error. That setting was moved from the  controller to the server quite a few firmware releases ago!

Don

I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:

If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2014, 10:09:34 AM »
WITH SEVERAL POSTS below the original, if you're coming back to the thread, and haven't read the initial post recently, remember it keeps getting added to... so you might want to rescan in case you missed something new...
Mike

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2014, 10:19:52 AM »
Mike,

Now I'm really getting confused!

I enabled "Alternate Channel Mapping", which should force a common threshold setting for Channels A and B of my Amp 1. After a reboot, the Status page is happily showing the "Triiger" level (i.e. "Threshold") being independently adjusted for each channel to tweak the relative gain (auto-noise adjust enabled).

It seems the "Trigger" level should now be the same for both channels!

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP


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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2014, 10:49:03 AM »
Mike,

Now I'm really getting confused!

I enabled "Alternate Channel Mapping", which should force a common threshold setting for Channels A and B of my Amp 1. After a reboot, the Status page is happily showing the "Triiger" level (i.e. "Threshold") being independently adjusted for each channel to tweak the relative gain (auto-noise adjust enabled).

It seems the "Trigger" level should now be the same for both channels!

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP


It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:52:23 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2014, 10:55:09 AM »
Bear with me.. something doesn't sound right about my reply to Don, just above... he's managed to get my mind in circles again...

LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE !!!!!!

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Offline dfroula

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2014, 11:09:29 AM »
Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014, 11:22:12 AM »
Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Right now almost anything makes sense. Right after I typed my response, I thought... dang, he's just running H on one amp.... hmmm ... after I passed the asteroid belt, I went brain dead,...
There has got to be a simple way to explain how these variables work. It would be discouraging to me as a new-comer.

The thing is, us 'older timers' with Red may have a mind set we've developed and as the need for these newer features comes around ... it's a bit easier to see how the 2 systems will interact, when I have the station operating... but jumping back and forth to H field, single amp, 2 signals, green and red, no yellow, A B C what works when, why and how whenever  is a bit tricky at first.. .but then I warned everybody in the primary post.
Remember how we learned Red at first? We had a blast, didn't we...?

This is gonna be even more fun... Even at that, we don't have the 'mental adjustment' our founding Greens would have to make as they hopefully upgrade to reds.

It may be "newbies" won't have nearly the confusion.  None of this really makes sense until we're actually seeing it in operation... to me anyway...

« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:24:29 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2014, 11:27:39 AM »
Oh.. BTW folks,... we could have some long posts on this as we go...
if you'd like, you can prepare it and paste it here,... you're welcome to use
something I built up many, many years ago on my website for personal use,... and I forget it often.
http://ourspecial.net/postdriver/

Mike

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Offline dfroula

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Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2014, 11:34:13 AM »
Yeah, it was a blast!  8-)

Nope, no E-field yet.

I was just trying to figure out what effect turning on the alternate channel mapping would have on my existing H-field amp, as the alternate mapping seems necessary if a second E-field amp is added. It would make no sense to share a threshold value across two very different amps and antennas, methinks.

I think I proved (to myself, anyway) that the auto-noise adjust feature still works, just not quite as well, with the alternate mapping enabled. More monitoring needed, of course.

It's great you brought up the issue, as it would not have been obvious to someone just installing the second amp.

Don
WD9DMP

Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Right now almost anything makes sense. Right after I typed my response, I thought... dang, he's just running H on one amp.... hmmm ... after I passed the asteroid belt, I went brain dead,...
There has got to be a simple way to explain how these variables work. It would be discouraging to me as a new-comer.

The thing is, us 'older timers' with Red may have a mind set we've developed and as the need for these newer features comes around ... it's a bit easier to see how the 2 systems will interact, when I have the station operating... but jumping back and forth to H field, single amp, 2 signals, green and red, no yellow, A B C what works when, why and how whenever  is a bit tricky at first.. .but then I warned everybody in the primary post.
Remember how we learned Red at first? We had a blast, didn't we...?

This is gonna be even more fun... Even at that, we don't have the 'mental adjustment' our founding Greens would have to make as they hopefully upgrade to reds.

It may be "newbies" won't have nearly the confusion.  None of this really makes sense until we're actually seeing it in operation... to me anyway...