Author Topic: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure  (Read 11419 times)

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Offline satmaster

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Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« on: February 26, 2015, 01:57:57 PM »
I am using a ws-1400 observerip station. Trying to perfect a script.

The station  gives me ABS and REL pressure which one does CWOP want?   It looks like WU is using the REL results so I submitted that and it looks right and doesn't give any errors but I wanted to be sure. I am only 174 feet above sea and it may be wrong for other altitudes. Also does it have to be adjusted for alt or do they do that internally?

I read on another post to use RAW pressure but how does that relate to what Ambient Weather is giving me ABS or REL?

Offline ericfynne

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 02:21:58 PM »
CWOP wants Altimeter Pressure, i.e. pressure corrected to sea level using altitude only. That's probably the same as your station supplies for 'relative', assuming you've set it correctly for your altitude.

Eric

Offline Beaudog

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 06:37:01 PM »
Ambient says that relative pressure is the same as sea level.  Abs would be the actual station pressure not adjusted for anything.  Neither are altimeter.

http://www.ambientweather.com/reprd.html

Offline ericfynne

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 04:52:35 AM »
Altimeter Pressure (QNH), is sea-level pressure, adjusted using only elevation.

From the CWOP manual:

"Pressure reduction format: Altimeter (QNH) Pressure - Altimeter pressure is a
corrected pressure value that includes the pressure between the station’s elevation and sea
level.
Note: Altimeter is the CWOP pressure standard because it is the simplest pressure
reduction format that most CWOP members can reliably deliver and which can be useful
by the National Meteorological Services."

But the safest way to do it would be to take the absolute pressure and calculate altimeter yourself. There are a number of formulae, I don't know if CWOP have a preferred one, but at 174ft the difference between them is unlikely to be significant.


Eric
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 05:50:03 AM by ericfynne »

Offline CW2274

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 01:04:00 PM »
Is CWOP based out of Great Britain? QNH- Queens Nautical Height. British pilots would always ask for it and it was given in millibars.

Offline satmaster

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 01:14:15 PM »
The observer IP does not have any adjustment for alt it just has a place to add a offset to make the REL the same as your airport. It also as a offset for ABS but not sure whats thats used for since it looks like WU only uses the REL.

So what I really need is a sample PHP code that will create the altimeter from the ABS pressure. Ive searched and cant find anything. I did see this but its in PY. https://code.google.com/p/wfrog/source/browse/trunk/src/uWxUtils.py?r=11

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 01:58:53 PM »
All this is in your manual: You need the relative pressure offset. (Airport altimeter - absolute pressure from live data panel)=offset
After you do this adjust relative pressure to airport altimeter if different but you need this offset first for it to follow.   

3. Reference Figure 31. Enter the following offset in the Calibration panel for Relative
Example Pressure Offset:
Relative Pressure Offset = 30.12 – 28.90 = 1.22 to nearby airport like manual says?



"To determine the relative pressure for your location, locate an official reporting station near
you (the internet is the best source for real time barometer conditions, such as Weather.com or
Wunderground.com®), and set your weather station to match the official reporting station."
Randy

Offline satmaster

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 11:07:52 AM »
NO you don't understand. I have already done that.

Im writing my own program to re post it to CWOP This process listed in the manual doesn't work the adjustment drifts from day to day because its not adjusting the pressure for altitude its only adding a offset to make it match the airport which is a kludge.

I can do that myself in my program by polling the airport and creating a offset problem is when I do that I find that the offset changes from day to day. Over time you get marked red in CWOP. It detects you making changes in the adjustment.


I need the real formula in PHP to create a real altimeter reading to submit to cwop.



Offline nincehelser

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 01:35:29 PM »
I need the real formula in PHP to create a real altimeter reading to submit to cwop.

This isn't in PHP, of course, but it should be pretty straightforward to implement.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/altimeterSetting.pdf

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 03:03:50 PM »
NO you don't understand. I have already done that.

Im writing my own program to re post it to CWOP This process listed in the manual doesn't work the adjustment drifts from day to day because its not adjusting the pressure for altitude its only adding a offset to make it match the airport which is a kludge.

I can do that myself in my program by polling the airport and creating a offset problem is when I do that I find that the offset changes from day to day. Over time you get marked red in CWOP. It detects you making changes in the adjustment.


I need the real formula in PHP to create a real altimeter reading to submit to cwop.
Oh! I understand, you asked a CWOP question (ABS and REL pressure which one does CWOP want? ) and got an answer, basically read your manual its all there.
Now your asking for script and formula because adjusting to airport isn't good enough, what did you call it a Kludge. I've got news for you, this is how CWOP, Davis and everyone says to adjust pressure for CWOP altimeter.  That offset from what I could gather is your elevation adjustment between you and a known accurate altimeter. Now if your hundreds of miles away from an airport that is a problem but most are within a few miles. Does it work and follow correctly I have no idea, since I will never own a Ambient WS to find out. 
If asking for some script was the primary reason for the post, you're much better off asking in the appropriate section maybe someone with scripting abilities would read it.
Randy

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 03:22:45 PM »
I couldn't grok the "kludge" comment.   Using an offset is perfectly valid. 

Maybe I didn't understand what you're trying to say, but the offset should not be drifting from day to day.  That makes me think your barometer is either broken or you're trying to match to an airport too far away. 

Or perhaps you're trying to match a pressure reading that takes into account other observations (such as temperature), not just elevation.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 03:24:45 PM by nincehelser »

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 04:41:20 PM »
I had to look up what "kludge" was.  :lol:
Randy

Offline miraculon

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2015, 08:37:09 AM »
I had to look up what "kludge" was.  :lol:

I have always liked this definition:
Quote
‘An ill-assorted collection of poorly-matching parts, forming a distressing whole’

Greg H.


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Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline satmaster

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2015, 01:36:37 PM »
Oh! I understand, you asked a CWOP question (ABS and REL pressure which one does CWOP want? ) and got an answer, basically read your manual its all there.
Now your asking for script and formula because adjusting to airport isn't good enough, what did you call it a Kludge. I've got news for you, this is how CWOP, Davis and everyone says to adjust pressure for CWOP altimeter.  That offset from what I could gather is your elevation adjustment between you and a known accurate altimeter. Now if your hundreds of miles away from an airport that is a problem but most are within a few miles. Does it work and follow correctly I have no idea, since I will never own a Ambient WS to find out. 
If asking for some script was the primary reason for the post, you're much better off asking in the appropriate section maybe someone with scripting abilities would read it.
[/quote]

Yep that was the original question what to submit to CWOP.  When you have no local airport the adjustment will change from day to day because the airport is 30 miles away so what do you do then?

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2015, 01:47:02 PM »
When you have no local airport the adjustment will change from day to day because the airport is 30 miles away so what do you do then?

If you can't or don't want to involve the airport, just use the formula.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/altimeterSetting.pdf

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2015, 02:10:09 PM »
When you have no local airport the adjustment will change from day to day because the airport is 30 miles away so what do you do then?

If you can't or don't want to involve the airport, just use the formula.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/altimeterSetting.pdf

He needs the formula in script forum so it does it automatically and works with his station data.  I would ask in the scripting section. Possibly someone could help out. Its way out of my league, but I do know its possible cumulus has it built in for Davis VP stations that only use SLP when uploading to CWOP. WL also has this function for cwop uploads.
Randy

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2015, 02:34:30 PM »
When you have no local airport the adjustment will change from day to day because the airport is 30 miles away so what do you do then?

If you can't or don't want to involve the airport, just use the formula.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/altimeterSetting.pdf

He needs the formula in script forum so it does it automatically and works with his station data.  I would ask in the scripting section. Possibly someone could help out. Its way out of my league, but I do know its possible cumulus has it built in for Davis VP stations that only use SLP when uploading to CWOP. WL also has this function for cwop uploads.

I guess I'm not clear on what he's asking, then.  There's really no "scripting" involved other than translating that formula into a single line of code.

That formula can be simplified considerably by evaluating the real numbers beforehand.  I'm not sure why they present it the way they do, but perhaps it's to keep it in a form that looks familiar to meteorologists. 

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2015, 02:42:00 PM »
Awesome, maybe that's what he needs.
Randy

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2015, 05:35:53 PM »
Here's a quick test using PHP 5.6.  Note the differences of raising to a power if you're using an older version of PHP.

As I mentioned earlier, it could easily be simplified by pre-calculating the real numbers, but I left them as-is so they match the source formula.

Code: [Select]
<?php

# This has not been extensively tested!
#
# This uses the formula presented at:
# http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/altimeterSetting.pdf
#
# $p is absolute pressure in millibars, $h is station elevation in meters
#

$p 933;
$h 323.4;

# If you're using php 5.6 or better, you can use the ** power notation.
# Should the line below error-out, you probably have an older version of php,
# Comment it and the associated echo line and it should run.

$alt = ($p 0.3)*(1+((1013.25**0.190284*0.0065/288)*($h/($p-0.3)**0.190284)))**(1/0.190284);

# If you're using an older version of php, you'll have to use the uglier pow()
# function but it has the advantage of working on more installations of php.

$alt2 = ($p 0.3)*pow((1+((pow(1013.25,0.190284)*0.0065/288)*($h/pow(($p-0.3),0.190284)))),(1/0.190284));

echo 
"\n";
echo 
"Absolute Pressure in mb = $p\n";
echo 
"Station Elevation in meters = $h\n";
echo 
"Calculated Altimeter Setting using ** = $alt\n";
echo 
"Calculated Altimeter Setting using pow() = $alt2\n";
echo 
"\n";
?>

« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 05:38:41 PM by nincehelser »

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:30 PM »
Good work, I hope this is what satmaster is looking for.
Randy

Offline BertSP

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Re: Which to use ABS or Rel pressure
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 12:51:49 PM »
I have a ws-1200ip and I am publishing to CWOP using a meteobridge. It does the calculation for you and accurately. It takes the value from ABS (station pressure) and works it up. At least its a solution. Fixed offset do not work at higher altitudes, and the REL pressure is a total waste for thin air folks.
BertSP
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