Author Topic: Repeated signal dropouts  (Read 22300 times)

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Online johnd

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #175 on: January 22, 2018, 11:45:33 AM »
[johnd, what would be the percentage of installations with more than one transmitter - and the percentage within areas that experience cold conditions (and owners who would notice dropouts)]

I don't have any exact figures but I'd guess 15-20% of VP2 owners and maybe 10% of Vue owners here have one or more supplementary transmitters. Most of our Davis sales are in the UK and very few of those would experience temperatures below -10C (say 14F) except on very rare occasions. So I'm not surprised about the lack of reports here.
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Offline zackdog

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #176 on: January 22, 2018, 06:14:05 PM »
Okay, condensed version of my time line.

1.  Purchased and installed VP2 Plus April of 2014.  ISS is on #2.

2.  First became aware that I was losing signal in Feb of 2016.  Went back in WL records and discovered I had the same problem during winter of 2014-2015, just not as bad.  Contacted Davis and sent in the console for repair.  Got console back and did not hook to a computer, since I was having excellent results with the Vue console. They replaced the console board for a cost of $82 including shipping.

3.  In June of 2016 I tried hooking console to a computer via usb cable, but was unable to get the computer to find the console.  Called Davis and was told to send console and logger to them under warranty.  According to the slip, they again replaced the console board.  I am now on third console board.  Now have unit hooked to a netbook and I thought it was working fine.

4.  In Dec of 2016 I purchased a remote temperature sensor and installed it as #4.  Have had no drop outs on it.

5.  After seeing this thread, I went back and checked my WL data for the winter of 2016-2017 and discovered I am still getting drop outs during the winter with the third console board.  I intended to continue on with this spread sheet,  but decided it is pretty obvious I have a problem, no need to continue.  I am now going to install my Vantage Vue ISS as #1 and try receiving signals from it on the VP2 console as Snowhiker had suggested while the weather is still cold.  Stay tuned.

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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #177 on: January 22, 2018, 06:51:06 PM »
That's a lot of helpful info, zackdog. Thanks!

Three console boards (essentially 3 consoles) and yet the ISS troubles persist! That's certainly not helping to make the case that this issue is confined to a handful of consoles.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #178 on: January 22, 2018, 07:27:42 PM »
Three console boards (essentially 3 consoles) and yet the ISS troubles persist! That's certainly not helping to make the case that this issue is confined to a handful of consoles.

I didn't ever think that was the case.  However, a handful of reported cases from locations with relatively low temperatures where the operator noticed the problem, and perhaps most likely where multiple transmitters are involved.

The frequency-hopping technology being used by the VP2 requires the receiver (console) to adjust to the exact set of frequencies being transmitted, and those exact frequencies will "drift" with temperature changes at the transmitter.  With multiple transmitters, that's multiple sets of frequencies, and each set "drifts" differently.  Firmware algorithms to handle that situation are not simple - and the smaller available memory in the VP2 console undoubtedly required compromises. 

Apparently (based on evidence demonstrated in this thread), the firmware algorithms in the Vue console are better at handling the situation.

Online johnd

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2018, 04:40:46 AM »
With multiple transmitters, that's multiple sets of frequencies, and each set "drifts" differently

It may well be that the frequency drift with temperature is the main fly in the ointment here, but let's not forget that there's another parameter too, which is the limits of the timing window in which each wireless channel sits. Maybe any timing drift also correlates with frequency drift (as presumably it might do if there was some master clock).

Also, I don't know whether each transmitter synchronises to use the same sequence of frequencies in the FHSS pattern or not. It would be quite interesting to see an explanatory post from someone who actually knows and understands how the FHSS, channel timings etc all work together for multiple VP2/Vue transmitters.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #180 on: January 23, 2018, 10:14:27 AM »
With multiple transmitters, that's multiple sets of frequencies, and each set "drifts" differently

It may well be that the frequency drift with temperature is the main fly in the ointment here, but let's not forget that there's another parameter too, which is the limits of the timing window in which each wireless channel sits. Maybe any timing drift also correlates with frequency drift (as presumably it might do if there was some master clock).

Also, I don't know whether each transmitter synchronises to use the same sequence of frequencies in the FHSS pattern or not. It would be quite interesting to see an explanatory post from someone who actually knows and understands how the FHSS, channel timings etc all work together for multiple VP2/Vue transmitters.

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Each transmitter is totally independent.  They don't "talk to each other", because they don't have any receiving capability. 

Being independent, and each having it's own "clock", yes the timing window also drifts with temperature, at the same "percentage" as the frequency drift.

But perhaps I'm not understanding the question.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 10:20:52 AM by dalecoy »

Offline rdsman

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #181 on: January 23, 2018, 10:27:47 AM »
Quote
Also, I don't know whether each transmitter synchronises to use the same sequence of frequencies in the FHSS pattern or not. It would be quite interesting to see an explanatory post from someone who actually knows and understands how the FHSS, channel timings etc all work together for multiple VP2/Vue transmitters.

A simple test:

There are people with multiple transmitters and multiple consoles out there.  Put two consoles side by side and into the Reception Diagnostic Screen.  Monitor a different transmitter with each console and see
if the "Frequency index of the next packet to be received" is the same on both consoles.  This test will tell if the console is just waiting the appropriate amount of time for the last transmitter (by ID) or if it is
tracking individual transmitters on a per frequency basis.

     
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Online johnd

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #182 on: January 23, 2018, 10:37:03 AM »
I'm not sure I understand the question.  Each transmitter is totally independent.  They don't "talk to each other", because they don't have any receiving capability. 

That's not my picture, but admittedly I'm at the edge of my knowledge in understanding how the wireless chips work. Maybe the transmitters don't talk to each other, but surely they listen to each other (fsvo listen at least). Otherwise how does a new transmitter in a set-up that already has eg an ISS know how to time its packet transmissions and to sequence its frequencies? Surely the console only listens to one frequency at a time (before it hops to the next one I mean)? Maybe some one can explain?
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2018, 10:39:31 AM »
Quote
Also, I don't know whether each transmitter synchronises to use the same sequence of frequencies in the FHSS pattern or not. It would be quite interesting to see an explanatory post from someone who actually knows and understands how the FHSS, channel timings etc all work together for multiple VP2/Vue transmitters.

A simple test:

There are people with multiple transmitters and multiple consoles out there.  Put two consoles side by side and into the Reception Diagnostic Screen.  Monitor a different transmitter with each console and see
if the "Frequency index of the next packet to be received" is the same on both consoles.  This test will tell if the console is just waiting the appropriate amount of time for the last transmitter (by ID) or if it is
tracking individual transmitters on a per frequency basis.

   

I have a Vue console and a VP2 console; however, the frequency index function appears the same on both. First, I put both on the same channel ID in the reception diagnostic screen. They were tracking perfectly (same indices changing at the same time on both consoles). Then, as instructed, I changed the channel ID on the VP2 console and saw different indices updating out of sync with the other channel ID. After awhile, I changed the Vue to the same channel ID as the VP2 and, again, it was tracking the VP2 in timing and indices.

Confirmed: the IDs channels are indexed independently.

Test was conducted at +23F.

[Updated to correct the term "channel" with "ID"]
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:21:38 AM by openvista »
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Offline rdsman

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #184 on: January 23, 2018, 10:56:49 AM »
Quote
Also, I don't know whether each transmitter synchronises to use the same sequence of frequencies in the FHSS pattern or not. It would be quite interesting to see an explanatory post from someone who actually knows and understands how the FHSS, channel timings etc all work together for multiple VP2/Vue transmitters.

A simple test:

There are people with multiple transmitters and multiple consoles out there.  Put two consoles side by side and into the Reception Diagnostic Screen.  Monitor a different transmitter with each console and see
if the "Frequency index of the next packet to be received" is the same on both consoles.  This test will tell if the console is just waiting the appropriate amount of time for the last transmitter (by ID) or if it is
tracking individual transmitters on a per frequency basis.

   

I have a Vue console and a VP2 console; however, the frequency index function appears the same on both. First, I put both on the same channel in the reception diagnostic screen. They were tracking perfectly (same indices changing at the same time on both consoles). Then, as instructed, I changed the channel on the VP2 console and saw different indices updating out of sync with the other channel. After awhile, I changed the Vue to the same channel as the VP2 and, again, it was tracking the VP2 in timing and indices.

Confirmed: the channels are indexed independently. (Test was conducted at 23F)

When you state "channel" are you referring to "Transmitter ID"? 
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #185 on: January 23, 2018, 10:59:49 AM »
When you state "channel" are you referring to "Transmitter ID"?

Yes, I use "channel" and "ID" synonymously. Perhaps I shouldn't since each transmitter can broadcast on multiple frequencies. Sorry about the confusion.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #186 on: January 23, 2018, 11:15:42 AM »
I'm not sure I understand the question.  Each transmitter is totally independent.  They don't "talk to each other", because they don't have any receiving capability. 

 Maybe the transmitters don't talk to each other, but surely they listen to each other (fsvo listen at least).

fsvo?  No, they don't listen.  They just transmit on a frequency schedule that is "hard wired" (based on the selection of ID). 

Quote
Otherwise how does a new transmitter in a set-up that already has eg an ISS know how to time its packet transmissions and to sequence its frequencies? Surely the console only listens to one frequency at a time (before it hops to the next one I mean)? Maybe some one can explain?

The transmitter just starts when it's "turned on".  And yes, the console only listens to one frequency at a time.  I'll try to find the time/energy to provide an explanation, when I get a few more minutes.

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #187 on: January 23, 2018, 12:06:28 PM »
The diagnostics screen on the console shows1 the frequency correction being applied to each received packet, so it should be *fairly* easy to see if the frequency is drifting.
Again with my home brew Arduino transmitter I added a "calibration factor" to the transmitted frequencies to bring that statistic as close to zero as I could.

1 Number 2 - Radio frequency error.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2018, 05:28:42 PM »
Otherwise how does a new transmitter in a set-up that already has eg an ISS know how to time its packet transmissions and to sequence its frequencies? Surely the console only listens to one frequency at a time (before it hops to the next one I mean)? Maybe some one can explain?

OK.  The following is based on work by dekay and several others:  And the actual Davis algorithm might be slightly different (we have no way of knowing), but generally has to work this way:

In the US version, 51 frequencies in the 915 MHz band are used.  There is a set sequence for these (hopping around in the band), used by every Davis transmitter.  A short example would be 911.5, 902.35, 912.00, 923.00, 915.00, 906.50, etc. etc. for 51 different frequencies.  Those are nominal, specific frequencies and at any given time, and any given temperature, any transmitter might (for example) actually transmit on 911.41375 or 911.58625 when it was "specified" to be transmitting on 911.50000.  That frequency correction factor would be the same for any specified frequency of that particular transmitter, near that time, but would vary with temperature, etc.  But another Davis transmitter, sitting at the same place, same temperature, etc, would have a different specific frequency correction factor (i.e., a different offset from the specified nominal frequency).

But just think of 51 frequencies on a specified non-linear sequence.  [Footnote: Europe only uses 4 frequencies]

The transmitter steps (hops) through and transmits on that sequence of frequencies at an interval specified by the "Transmitter ID".  There are 8 of those IDs.  ID #1 specifies an interval of 2.5 seconds.  ID #2 an interval of 2.5625 seconds, and so forth by steps of 1/16 second (.0625) until ID #8 is 2.9375 seconds between transmissions on successive frequency "hops". 

Refer to the short example of frequency sequence above: 
       911.5, 902.35, 912.00, 923.00, 915.00, 906.50

Now, start up the receiver (Console).  Pick a frequency to listen on (911.5), and listen for perhaps a long time.  [Doing the math, 50 x 2.9375 ~~ 2 minutes 27 seconds]  If you don't receive anything, assume there's no transmitter out there, and keep listening. 

If you receive something (a valid packet) on 911.5, then quickly start listening on 902.35.  You should receive a packet within 2.9375 seconds (ID #8).  For purposes of this tale, assume you receive it at 2.5 seconds - so there's a transmitter on ID #1.  Now, you can set up to receive (in the sequence of the next 49 frequencies, at 2.5 second intervals) from that transmitter.

MEANWHILE you have to ALSO keep listening, to see if there is a transmitter on any or all of the other 7 IDs.  That requires listening on the same frequency (902.35) at 2.5625 seconds, 2.625, 2.6875, etc.  And if you receive a packet, you know there's another transmitter on the associated ID - up to a total of 8 of them.  So, set up to also receive (in the sequence of the next 49 frequencies, at the appropriate interval different from 2.5 seconds) from that transmitter.

Remember:  Those packets you receive from different transmitters, may have different frequency offsets from the nominal specified frequency.  So, you have to arrange to measure the frequency offsets (a topic for a different discussion), and keep track of them -- and they change with changing temperature.

Now, throw in that the operator may suddenly remove the transmitter with ID #1.  Or change it's ID.  Or reboot the console...............

I hope I got that right.  Questions?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 05:31:44 PM by dalecoy »

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2018, 06:07:27 PM »
Excellent explanation, dalecoy. I knew each transmitter was broadcasting on multiple frequencies but wasn't certain exactly how this was accomplished.

So, if I understand this correctly, since my ISS is on ID #6 it should broadcast a packet every 2.8125 seconds. The console listens for that exact interval and if, for some reason, nothing is there within 2.8125 seconds, the packet is missed (dropped) and the console tunes into the next frequency (which is stored in an array and the index tells the console which array key to request). If too many packets are dropped sequentially, a re-sync is attempted. If the re-sync operation fails after 10 minutes then the console indicates a lost signal with an "L" flashing in the lower right and will attempt to re-sync with the transmitter at that ID in 15 minutes. Correct?

How does cold weather affect the timing of the packet? Is it that the clock in the transmitter drifts and sends packets slightly late?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:16:06 PM by openvista »
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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2018, 06:40:35 PM »
There are actually TWO different CLOCKs, one in the ISS transmitter and one in the Console receiver and they are NOT truly "synched" because there is no feedback between them.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:42:22 PM by Old Tele man »
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2018, 06:51:26 PM »
There are actually TWO different CLOCKs, one in the ISS transmitter and one in the Console receiver and they are NOT truly "synched" because there is no feedback between them.

Yes, but it would seem that only the clock in the transmitter is affected by cold. How would a clock inside a console in a climate-controlled room drift only in cold weather? My guess is that it expects the packet within a certain time window and doesn't get it because the transmitter's clock is slightly off. Perhaps the Vue is more lenient and waits longer (along with possibly applying the observed difference to future packet reception timing)?
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #192 on: January 23, 2018, 07:46:55 PM »
How does cold weather affect the timing of the packet? Is it that the clock in the transmitter drifts and sends packets slightly late?

The console is actually listening slightly before (and after) the 2.8125 timing mark.  Note that how much is "slightly" depends on how many transmitters, and on what IDs, it's listening.  [So, more transmitters means less time that the console can spend on each transmitter, within the 2.x second windows]

Both the timing and the frequency are affected (equally %) by the cold.  But because the timing is relatively broad (there's lots of time in 1/16th of a second), the actual critical effect is likely on the frequency. 

So, the console loses packets (it's listening on a frequency slightly different from the transmitter's drifted frequency).  Then decides it has to spend additional time trying to figure out the new frequency offset (for that transmitter).  Or, ultimately, declare it "lost" and try to re-acquire.


Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #193 on: January 23, 2018, 07:59:33 PM »
Perhaps the Vue is more lenient and waits longer (along with possibly applying the observed difference to future packet reception timing)?

If your head hurts from thinking about all of this....

Consider that the VP2 console has a smaller memory than the Vue console.  That memory is used to store data and instructions (firmware).  It's well known that the VP2 console is so memory-constrained that any addition to it's instructions are limited to the minimum possible things.  The instructions must be the most simple ones to do the job.  And any additions are essentially impossible.

My best guess is that the Vue memory allows a lot more instructions to handle this transmitter reception stuff.  That is, the Vue is simply smarter about what to do, etc. 

As a forinstance - maybe the Vue console can start the difficult process of looking for transmitter frequency drift after seeing just one or two missed packets - where the VP2 console must take the easier approach of just declaring that lock has been lost, and starting over with that transmitter sync.  Please note that this is a speculative example, and I don't know what the firmware actually does.   

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #194 on: January 23, 2018, 09:52:27 PM »
Surely the console only listens to one frequency at a time (before it hops to the next one I mean)?

That's correct - but it can very rapidly change the frequency it's listening to.

Maybe the transmitters don't talk to each other, but surely they listen to each other (fsvo listen at least). Otherwise how does a new transmitter in a set-up that already has eg an ISS know how to time its packet transmissions and to sequence its frequencies?

Still wondering about "fsvo", but...

Note that the transmitter doesn't have to know anything about anything, except for the setting of the dip switches.

Also, I'm told that European systems (in the 868 MHz band) use only four frequencies.  That wouldn't require much change in the firmware, and would speed things up a bit - but be more susceptible to outside interference.   

Offline rdsman

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #195 on: January 23, 2018, 10:00:35 PM »
Here is some food for thought:

According to the FCC fillings for both consoles (internal Pictures);

Both consoles use the same processor - ATMEGA128L.  The VP2 processor uses an external crystal (shown in the pictures), the Vue apparently uses the internal RC oscillator of the processor (no external crystal shown in the pictures).  Along with keeping up with transmitter frequency drift, both would have to somehow timestamp the packets in order to implement a PLL or PID algorithm to keep up with timing errors.  The VP2 would have to determine the frequency error, calculate a new receive frequency (for each transmitter) and save it into an array.  For the Vue, it can read the frequency error direct and save it into an array (for each transmitter) and simply write the accumulated value back to one register to be applied next time around.  No matter how you look at it, the Vue would be faster at doing this than the VP2 in the case of frequency error.  They would require the same amount of time for timestamping packets assuming they both run at the same processor speed.

I'll go back to sleep now........
     
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:19:19 PM by rdsman »
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #196 on: January 23, 2018, 10:10:27 PM »
dalecoy,

So, on one hand, we have the older and slower VP2 that struggles keeping up in cold conditions, particularly making frequency corrections in real time across multiple IDs. On the other we have the Vue -- a more capable unit with, perhaps, better firmware (something I posited awhile back in the CC1021 thread).

That still doesn't explain why some VP2 consoles experience this issue and others do not in identical weather conditions. Care to speculate?
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #197 on: January 24, 2018, 12:02:43 AM »
That still doesn't explain why some VP2 consoles experience this issue and others do not in identical weather conditions. Care to speculate?

Do we have information on VP2 consoles having this issue when only receiving from one transmitter?

Assuming you are talking about VP2 consoles receiving from two transmitters, and situations with the same received-at-the-console signal strengths:

1.  It turns out that the exact combination of Transmit IDs has some effect on the complexity of the situation (due to the timing).  So, what were those choices?  [I don't know what combinations are better than others, but I know there is an effect - how often does the console have to choose between 2 frequencies scheduled for the same exact time]

2.  If the two transmitters react similarly to weather (~~equal frequency drift), that situation would be easier for the console to handle than if the two transmitters have different drift.  [That might be due to different models, housing, location, mounting, or even just the fact that electronic components like resistors can typically vary by 5%].  And there's no easy way to tell if that is the case.

3.  Do we know what else the console is continually doing, in addition to receiving?  Feeding data to some kind of logger?  Responding to software requests?  Those things all take processor resources (cpu cycles), that are not available for the receiving-and-adjusting tasks.

Obviously, if a mild form of the problem occurs, but the console recovers and the operator doesn't notice, then "everything's OK".

And clearly, more than 2 transmitters......

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #198 on: January 24, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »
Do we have information on VP2 consoles having this issue when only receiving from one transmitter?

Yes, zackdog said he had issues with a single ISS. He later added a temperature station, but not before experiencing cold related outages with 1 ID.

3.  Do we know what else the console is continually doing, in addition to receiving?  Feeding data to some kind of logger?  Responding to software requests?  Those things all take processor resources (cpu cycles), that are not available for the receiving-and-adjusting tasks.

I've actually experienced the "lost signal" status on the console both ways: with a logger (WeatherLink IP) polled by WeatherCat software and as a standalone console with no logger connected. I was receiving 2 transmitters in both instances.

And clearly, more than 2 transmitters......

miraculon, who lives in northern Michigan, has 6 transmitters and 2 VP2 consoles he says do NOT experience dropouts. He would have to confirm how many of those transmitters each console receives, but I think it's pretty safe to assume at least one of those consoles has more than 2 IDs selected.

Not trying to be a pain in the rear. Just trying to refine the most repeatable aspects of the problem which I would guess to be some combination of component tolerances, a poor QC/QA process, and hardware/firmware already at the limits of its capabilities.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #199 on: January 24, 2018, 10:26:27 AM »
Not trying to be a pain in the rear. Just trying to refine the most repeatable aspects of the problem which I would guess to be some combination of component tolerances, a poor QC/QA process, and hardware/firmware already at the limits of its capabilities.

Understood.  You asked for speculation about some factors, and I provided some.

I agree with your speculation about component tolerances and hardware/firmware at the limits, and would add individual siting factors, local RF environment, and peopleware. 

I'm a bit skeptical about the role of QC/QA - I would not expect the individual products to be tested at the temperature limits.