Topic: console reliability

[adomas]

I have been using Weather Wizard complete station with weatherlink for more than two years already. The originally purchased console have failed last year after 16 month of usage. It was under warranty and was replaced by McMurdo (UK) with the console processor failure (the symptom of this was often freezing of the console). The replaced console now is working for six month and a few days before it become frozen again. PC was unable to connect to it and I need to remove power and power it again to start working. Each time the freeze happens I loose my date stored in logger. Here I have a short question: what is your opinion, is the vantage pro console or envoy more reliable in comparison to weather wizard III or not? This will help me to decide should I buy a new wizard console or just a new vantage pro station instead (if it is really more more reliable). I am using the data for my scientific work, thus the data loss is a real headache.

[wxtech]

I purchased an original wireless Vantage Pro in 2004.  I upgraded to a wireless VP2+ when they became available.  The old VP is still working fine.  I just use it to monitor my upstairs rooms.  I have a wired VP2 for monitoring another location.  All consoles have been trouble free.  I have 2 dataloggers connected to different computers.  Never lost data.  I'm using WeatherLink 5.6a and Virtual Weather Station v13.01p09.  The versions may be old but I see no reason to upgrade them.  VP2 is highly recommended.
http://www.lexingtonwx.com/
You may have a problem external to the Wizard/datalogger and is damaging them. Check data wiring, power line variations, computer interface, etc.
Al

[jruys]

I personally have not had a problem with either my Wizard Console (going on 7 years), or my Vantage Pro II console (going on 4.5 years).  That is odd that you have had two consoles go out.  The Vantage Pro II console is much nicer and displays much more information at once, if you have the cash, I would upgrade to the Vantage Pro II.  If you do upgrade, I suggest you get the serial version of WeatherLink, it seems to be more reliable than the USB version.  Good luck.

[adomas]

It sounds interestingly that there might be any external problem which damages the console. Personally I do not think that interference could be damaging. The thunderstorms perhaps could be an issue, but still I did not found any information, where someone is reporting station damaged by lightning. On the other hand, if a lightning strikes all electronic equipment should be damaged permanently and stop working (console, logger etc). But they are still working, only unreliably. Let's go to wiring. Perhaps the wrong wiring, if the several wires links together due to moisture, could course problems. Personally, I think, that the damaged will be permanently, but not the console freezing?

[Bushman]

Always be sure the console power is plugged into a lighnting suppression device.  Doesn't have to be a fancy UPS either.

[johnd]

The Wizard console is generally very reliable. I know of users with the Weather Monitor II console (which is similar to the Wizard but a little more sophisticated) that's been in use without problems for nearly 15 years.

I'd strongly suspect that you have a cause external to the console. A number of things can cause a cabled console to hang/freeze, eg:

1. Poor quality AC mains;

2. Wireless transmitters (eg cellphones, cordless phones etc) being used in the immediate vicinity of the console;

3. Differences of electrical potential in different parts of the system, eg an anemometer high in the air with a nearby thunderstorm can be at a very different potential from a grounded device such as a PC and the resulting current flow can cause problems. (This tends only to be a problem in cabled weather stations like the Wizard and not wireless ones of course.)

If the console can be restarted from a 'freeze' by removing electrical power (AC mains plus any fitted battery) for a few minutes and then restoring then in my experience there's unlikely to be a console fault.

Provided the Wizard is measuring the specific weather parameters that you need then there'll be no great benefit from moving to a (cabled) VP system. The VP is obviously a much more modern and more capable design, but if all you want to do is eg to measure wind speed/direction then the Wizard can do that perfectly well. And if you were to move to a wireless VP2 (or eg the new Davis Vantage Vue model - which should be available in Europe in a couple of weeks time) then this removes item [3] from the list of possible problem causes. Additionally, because the VP2 wireless console can run on internal batteries for a long time it's a lot easier to test whether any problems could be caused by noise on the AC mains supply (ie item [1]).

John Dann
Cambridge UK
www.weatherstations.co.uk
VP Knowledgebase: http://vp-kb.wikispaces.com

[adomas]

John, thanks for your answers. The first thing (AC issues) are not the cause in my installation, because I use only battery power and not AC. Wireless transmitters is a real problem, because RFI occurs time to time, usually in temperature data. It is better to install the complete station outside the house to eliminate this, but the lowest temperature for logger and envoy is to be -10 centigrade and it is problematic during the winter times. And finally the electric potential. The anemometer is 2 meters above the ground on a tripod and this perhaps could not cause differences in electric potential.

[johnd]

OK thanks that answers some of the possibilities. The sort of questions I'd ask then include:

How often does the console hang at present?

I'm guessing that you have the logger permanently connected to the PC? Do the hangs still happen if you only connect the PC when you need to download data? (You'll need to have the PC off when you make and break the connection.)

Do the console hangs still happen if you disconnect the anemometer (and leave it disconnected for a test period)?

As to fixes if RFI is a potential problem: If you've got an RJ45 crimping tool then you might be able to site the junction box outdoors (but in a dry spot if feasible, eg inside a protective box) and run a screened cable from junction box to console. (Actually thinking about it, are LAN patch cables straight-through, ie no crossed wires? If so then you might be able to try using one of those.) Potentially you could also place the Wizard console in a screened box, eg just a plastic box covered with aluminium foil.

A couple of other thoughts:

The VP loggers don't lose data if the power is lost unlike the 7862 loggers.

If you're happy with the anemometer at 2m height then a Vantage Vue might be a possibility as another and wireless option and cheaper than the VP2. (But if you have a heavy RFI problem then even a Vue/VP2 wireless might start to suffer. These are relatively resistant to RFI in general, but obviously if the RFI is powerful enough it will still ultimately cause problems. VP2 stations are however quite widely used by eg radio hams.)

AIUI the official launch date for the Vue is now 8th Sept and we're expecting stock in Europe a couple of weeks after that.

[Bushman]

Because the VP2 wireless is hopping SS in the 900 mhz range it is very resistant to RFI.  The nature of the beast. 

[johnd]

Because the VP2 wireless is hopping SS in the 900 mhz range.

Not generally the case in most of the world unfortunately - it just uses 7 channels very close together (total frequency span = 0.6MHz). So unless the RFI is on one spot frequency - which often is not the case - then it's still potentially a problem. On the plus side it does use a frequency band that's not heavily used otherwise at present, but that's starting to change sadly.

[adomas]

Hi John,

Last summer the console hanged every two weeks approximately and after fourth incident in was replaced as I told. The replaced console worked half a year without freezing and froze approximately one week ago, after it is working till present day (a week already).

No the logger isn't permanently connected to PC. I use PC time to time (time per 30-45 days usually) to download data. It means that all the hangs happened when PC wasn't connected to the station.

As for anemometer I can disconnect it for the test period and see what happens. Because I do not know will the console freeze again and when it could happen it could take a very long time test this. Perhaps, better would be to see will the problem reappear again and how often it happens. If for example it will happen again in six month, this solution will take too long time to work around.

Yes I have crimping tools and use them quite often. Th cable from junction box to console is very short one, if the junction box is placed outdoors it should be changed for a longer one (I remember that Davis gives restrictions for it lengths).

And finally it is very important that VP logger will not lose the stored data if power is disconnected. This means that VP is much more advanced station that Wizard is. I know also that VP hasn't a leap year problem, while for wizard station it exists.

[johnd]

...The cable from junction box to console is very short one, if the junction box is placed outdoors it should be changed for a longer one (I remember that Davis gives restrictions for it lengths).

Cable length shouldn't be a problem - you can have up to 38m from junction box to console. (Strictly speaking, you also need to factor in the cable length from junction box to sensors, but if you're only going to make the console side cable say 10m long then there shouldn't be a problem.)

[mmorris]

I got lost here are you saying you got your junction box located outside in the weather?

[adomas]

No Mmorris. It was only a suggestion to me for elimination of RFI. The junction box in inside at present.

[Bushman]

Because the VP2 wireless is hopping SS in the 900 mhz range.

Not generally the case in most of the world unfortunately - it just uses 7 channels very close together (total frequency span = 0.6MHz). So unless the RFI is on one spot frequency - which often is not the case - then it's still potentially a problem. On the plus side it does use a frequency band that's not heavily used otherwise at present, but that's starting to change sadly.

Actually no.  There are 51 frequencies used  in the 902-928 models.  Other than third wold RF devices the law pretty much works so that devices do not clobber each other.  BTW, it is interesting to note that the test lab put ferrite core(s) on the USB cable when testing.

[WeatherGoose]

Although this guy appears to be running on battery... I thought I would still mention this for others who may be having RFI issues.  (Adding ferrites to each end of your serial/usb cable to the computer may help though.)

Davis recently and quietly changed to a NEW AC adapter for their VP2 system, and possibly other station models as well.  The new one has a Ferrite on the cord that connects to the console.

I received one of these after I called and complained about chronic serial errors when using the AC power supply.  After switching to the new supply and also adding a couple of Ferrites to each end of my USB cable, I have not had a single error or problem.

It has been 5 months since the change and the console remains rock solid in the reliability department.  

Davis replaced the adapter for free and paid for the shipping too.  

[d_l]

I guess that means the DC output of the power adapter isn't always clean DC if they think it needs a ferrite core on the cord.  Maybe they should have gotten a better adapter supplier or a better adapter design.

[wxtech]

The ferrite cores won't do anything to what goes on inside the wall wort.  They attenuate the noise that comes in on the power line, digital noise generated inside the console, or if noise is picked up by the long cord from the wall wort to the console.
The wall wort is typical if not better than most.  I've seen some that aren't regulated.  This one has a 7805 IC 5 volt regulator.  Davis #6625 wall wort schematic is below.
Supply voltage out measured under load (console connected) = 5.0022 volts.

[WeatherGoose]

I have been using Weather Wizard complete station with weatherlink for more than two years already. The originally purchased console have failed last year after 16 month of usage. It was under warranty and was replaced by McMurdo (UK) with the console processor failure (the symptom of this was often freezing of the console). The replaced console now is working for six month and a few days before it become frozen again. PC was unable to connect to it and I need to remove power and power it again to start working. Each time the freeze happens I loose my date stored in logger. Here I have a short question: what is your opinion, is the vantage pro console or envoy more reliable in comparison to weather wizard III or not? This will help me to decide should I buy a new wizard console or just a new vantage pro station instead (if it is really more more reliable). I am using the data for my scientific work, thus the data loss is a real headache.

We have another Davis station up here at Bass Lake that previously ran a Wizard.  His readings were not always where they should have been compared to my VP2 and my professional grade analog instruments.  His MADIS consistency checks were also problematic a lot of the time.

He upgraded to a VP2 a few months ago and the difference was immediately apparent!  His readings are now right in line with my VP2 and his MADIS checks have also gone from 1 thumbs up or worse to consistent TWO Thumbs Up most of the time now.

So, based on all of the above, I would say that the VP2 is considerably more accurate than the Wizard.

This other station is .7 miles from my location.

[adomas]

Hello,

I have decided to revive my topic, because I found the reason why. The problem lies in weatherlink logger memory or is related with it. When the logger is full and should delete the oldest values by replacing with new ones, the station freezes. I have received this error two times already. My station is configured to 60 min. logging interval and after 65 days the station have frozen. So each time I take the data with a laptop, it is important to disconnect the station from power, than connect it again and restore power. I do not know, where the problem is (logger or console), but to my opinion there is no sense to try fixing it.

Adomas

[dalecoy]

Hello,

I have decided to revive my topic, because I found the reason why. The problem lies in weatherlink logger memory or is related with it. When the logger is full and should delete the oldest values by replacing with new ones, the station freezes. I have received this error two times already. My station is configured to 60 min. logging interval and after 65 days the station have frozen. So each time I take the data with a laptop, it is important to disconnect the station from power, than connect it again and restore power. I do not know, where the problem is (logger or console), but to my opinion there is no sense to try fixing it.

Adomas

As I recall, you're using "Weather Wizard complete station with weatherlink". 

The "vintage" of your Weather Wizard, logger, and WeatherLink is about 1999.  Firmware updates and WeatherLink updates aren't available.  I'm not sure about the data size of your logger, but it's probably relatively small (perhaps 132 KB). 

Out of curiosity, what's the version of the console firmware, and the version of WeatherLink that you are using?

If the logger is otherwise operating properly, then the console (firmware) is probably at fault - it should be handling the "full logger" situation.

You shouldn't have to disconnect power to reset things.  After you download all the data to your laptop, use the Set Archive Interval command in the Setup menu to clear the memory.

I would suggest contacting Davis (via email), just to see if they have any suggestions - but you're probably on the right path to get a more recent station.