Author Topic: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968  (Read 15039 times)

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Offline mackbig

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Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« on: October 07, 2008, 08:08:42 AM »
Anyone have any ideas what household items might interfere with OS sensor, but only channel 1???

Situation:  A few weeks ago I noticed my channel 1 sensor flatlining occasionally.   I have two radio shack base units, in addition to the OS console.  All three were loosing channel 1. So I knew it had nothing to do with the OS console.   So logically it seemed that my sensor was probably just losing its transmission ability.

Last night I swapped it for a new sensor that had bee working on Channel 3 for a week or so.

This morning while getting ready for work I noticed that one of the shack base units was reporting -- --.   I thought perhaps I forget to do a channel search on it.   So I reset it.

Then I got to work and saw that my website was reporting 7.1 degrees.   So I did a channel search on the console.  it picked up the station and the temp showed as 1.0

The console, and the 2 shack units are in different locations of the house.  The sensor is only a short distance from the house, and this overall setup has worked for a year, 3 years of total operation.  I personally dont have any new toys around my own house that I think would cause interference....

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Andrew

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Offline Anthony

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2008, 08:18:42 AM »
Humm.... Have any of your neighbors had any babys lately? I know somw baby monitors (or atleast the old ones) operate in the same frequency range as the OS sensors. Any ham radio operators?



Thanks,
Anthony
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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »
Not that I know of... We have a baby monitor, but its newer and has been running since last December.  No ham antennas that I can see. We are down the street from a firehall, they have a large antenna, but its always been there, and its the opposite direction.

The OS console is line of site 40 feet, second floor.
Radio shack 1 is line of site 50 feet, main floor looking through large window.
Radio shack 2 is the farthest on opposite side of house, if it was just that one it would make sense....

Andrew


Humm.... Have any of your neighbors had any babys lately? I know somw baby monitors (or atleast the old ones) operate in the same frequency range as the OS sensors. Any ham radio operators?



Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline tomwxman

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2008, 06:28:59 PM »
Mine started doing that a couple months ago and recently I took it down and took it apart & cleaned it. I also polished the solar panel as it had gotten quite opaque in a couple years of intense sun here.

I dunno, I'm thinking either your batteries or your solar battery are faulty perhaps. In any case my problem seemed to go away "by itself" as I doubt the cleaning(s) were responsible. Then again, maybe the cloudy solar panel wasn't charging the internal battery properly...?

Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2008, 08:18:02 PM »
Well I am hoping it goes away "by itself"

Nothing to clean, solar panel or sensor.  I am not using the null channel THGR968, I am using the additional channel extra sensors for channel 1. (THGR268 equivalent)
The first one I had a problem with was a 5 year old Radio Shack version.  Which is why I thought perhaps it had live out its life, and stopped xmitting.  It had brand new lithium batteries in it, double checked on testor prior to swapping.

The second one that failed on channel 1 was a brand new Nextech version of the same sensor, again with brand new batteries.  It was working for 2 weeks on channel 3 with no drops.

If this persists I will have to acquire a new THGR968 and stop using channel 1 as outdoor....

Andrew

Mine started doing that a couple months ago and recently I took it down and took it apart & cleaned it. I also polished the solar panel as it had gotten quite opaque in a couple years of intense sun here.

I dunno, I'm thinking either your batteries or your solar battery are faulty perhaps. In any case my problem seemed to go away "by itself" as I doubt the cleaning(s) were responsible. Then again, maybe the cloudy solar panel wasn't charging the internal battery properly...?

Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline tomwxman

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 11:57:10 AM »
Sorry, I guess you'd said up-front you using Channel 1. I keep confusing the THGR968 vs 268.  ](*,)

Do you have other sensors on channels 2 and/or 3? If yes, I'd try turning those off i.e. maybe they're sending on the wrong channel or something.

As I said, I had a similar problem with my THGR968--one other thing I did was reset my 2nd console which stopped "seeing" it. I don't THINK the console transmit anything, i.e. are just receivers, but one wonders if maybe they DO transmit something and thus are capable of interfering with each other. In any case, this OS system is truly a b*tch to troubleshoot sometimes...  :???:

Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 11:56:21 AM »
2 full days an no flat lines. Of course there had been several days of good transmission when trouble shooting the first occurence.

I do have a channel 2 and 3 working right now.  I am going to leave those up for this test phase....

I did turn off an IP wireless camera that was in my office near the pc.  It had been dormant for several months, but then again it was up for several month earlier this year with not interference problems....

Still hoping for the "go away" on its own.

Andrew

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Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 11:03:56 PM »
. We are down the street from a firehall, they have a large antenna, but its always been there, and its the opposite direction.


Andrew


Humm.... Have any of your neighbors had any babys lately? I know somw baby monitors (or atleast the old ones) operate in the same frequency range as the OS sensors. Any ham radio operators?



I kinda wonder about the equipment at the fire hall. There may be some problems there causing sporadic spurs from the exciter or similar.( I have a MTR 2000 make a fool out of me with this one time )
All sorts of silly things come into play with this type of thing.
I was playing around with my spectrum analyzer in the shop just this week and I noticed the over all noise floor has increased by close to 7 db here since earlier in the season.
I had a similar situation with my satellite receiver with the uhf remote link. the neighbors had exactly the same system and we were always getting junk we didn't record. After changing the address on the remote all is well.


I forgot to mention this.. I had a Lacrosse remote temperature transmitter mounted withing 20 feet of my 968 in the back yard at one time and both were on the 433 mhz area. They would cancel each other out randomly. After moving the two I have had no troubles with the Lacrosse dropping out and knock on wood neither has the OS..

Wayne
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 11:09:12 PM by W Thomas »


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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2008, 09:08:38 AM »
Is there a cheap gizmo I can buy or rent that I can use to track down the offender...  a little search and destroy, make it look like a rodent knawing incident....

Andrew


I kinda wonder about the equipment at the fire hall. There may be some problems there causing sporadic spurs from the exciter or similar.( I have a MTR 2000 make a fool out of me with this one time )
All sorts of silly things come into play with this type of thing.
I was playing around with my spectrum analyzer in the shop just this week and I noticed the over all noise floor has increased by close to 7 db here since earlier in the season.
I had a similar situation with my satellite receiver with the uhf remote link. the neighbors had exactly the same system and we were always getting junk we didn't record. After changing the address on the remote all is well.


I forgot to mention this.. I had a Lacrosse remote temperature transmitter mounted withing 20 feet of my 968 in the back yard at one time and both were on the 433 mhz area. They would cancel each other out randomly. After moving the two I have had no troubles with the Lacrosse dropping out and knock on wood neither has the OS..

Wayne
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Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline tomwxman

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2008, 09:16:41 AM »
Is there a cheap gizmo I can buy or rent that I can use to track down the offender...  a little search and destroy, make it look like a rodent knawing incident....
You might want to google on "rf sniffer" and do some reading. Found a "Bug Detector" but it's got the wrong frequency ranges. Still, there might be something out there.

EDIT: Wait, that bug detector does have a range 5--460MHz--aren't the OS devices in the 400MHz range? Take a look at this.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 09:21:16 AM by tomwxman »

Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2008, 09:42:40 PM »
Yep,
Some method of RF detection would let you know what you have..IF you are able to discriminate between offending signals and those that are useful and have to be there.
Depending on what type of emission the sensors emit you may be able to use a communications receiver capable of tuning the UHF band from say 420- 450 Mhz and listen to whats there around the 433 mark.
With you station shut down hopefully then you would be able to see if that spot was quiet. Bad part is this would likely be effective only as an analog  indicator..but there may be a carrier even if the sensor transmit a digital signal.

That's a good question to look up! I'll try to determine what emission they use!
BTW some garage door openers and vehicular remote keyless entry systems work in that range as well.. anything like that going on when you detect a drop out??


Wayne
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Offline talbert1952

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2008, 10:46:56 PM »
All WMR-968 sensors transmit on the same frequency at ~433 MHz. Each sensor blindly spews out a data packet at a predetermined interval. The console determines which sensor the data packet came from based on the contents of the data packet. The channel numbers are not different frequencies but are different identifiers in the data packets. Since all the sensors operate on the same frequency it is unlikely RF interference is the cause unless the signal coming from "Channel 1" is significantly weaker than the signals from the other sensors. Try moving one of your consoles closer to the offending sensor to see if the problem goes away on that console.

Have you installed any compact florescent bulbs? They produce lots of RFI. Also, LCD monitors and TVs produce tremendous amounts of RFI. I have an LCD monitor that puts out strong signals around 420 MHz.
Tom
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Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 08:23:40 PM »
Well I am hoping it goes away "by itself"



Are you still having troubles or did it clear up on it's own??
Hopefully everything is back to normal for you now.

Wayne
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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 05:55:14 PM »
Thanks for the posts.  With the stock markets and Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend I have not had a whole lot of time to be checking the board....

I had a short flatline this week-end.  So that rules out interference from my IP camera that I had recently fired up and then turned off last week.   I did have my old THGR968 transmitting on the null channel.. I have now disconnected that.

Talbert1952.  Thanks for the insight on how the various sensors send the data.  I did think it was a slightly different frequency or subchannel.... I will put one of the shack consoles closer to the window on the main floor to see if I can spot a drop.  I cant move the os console as it is already as close to the sensor as can be, and it has worked for a year in its current location.  I can move my outdoor sensor a bit. Its only 40 feet down to the sensor now. I might be able to trim it to 30 feet.  The only difference between channels 2 and 3, and the 2 different sensors I have tried on channel 1 is that they are inside the house.

I cant pinpoint anything else, but the drops/flat lines usually occur overnight... Which might make sense with respect to a local baby monitor, since they tend to be on overnight, at least the angel care (sids types).   I do have a couple to CF lights in the house, but they are not typically on when the drops occur....

I will keep plugging...thanks again to all who have responded.

Andrew

Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2008, 07:16:49 PM »
Thanks for the posts.  With the stock markets and Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend I have not had a whole lot of time to be checking the board....

I had a short flatline this week-end.  So that rules out interference from my IP camera that I had recently fired up and then turned off last week.   I did have my old THGR968 transmitting on the null channel.. I have now disconnected that.

Talbert1952.  Thanks for the insight on how the various sensors send the data.  I did think it was a slightly different frequency or subchannel.... I will put one of the shack consoles closer to the window on the main floor to see if I can spot a drop.  I cant move the os console as it is already as close to the sensor as can be, and it has worked for a year in its current location.  I can move my outdoor sensor a bit. Its only 40 feet down to the sensor now. I might be able to trim it to 30 feet.  The only difference between channels 2 and 3, and the 2 different sensors I have tried on channel 1 is that they are inside the house.

I cant pinpoint anything else, but the drops/flat lines usually occur overnight... Which might make sense with respect to a local baby monitor, since they tend to be on overnight, at least the angel care (sids types).   I do have a couple to CF lights in the house, but they are not typically on when the drops occur....

I will keep plugging...thanks again to all who have responded.

Andrew


Andrew,
Hope you get every thing in order! Those flat lines are a problem! I know that first hand from back about August :)
This sort of thing can be a pain to locate. I have a spur from something  that is showing up here between 154 and 155 Mhz..It hasn't cause me any troubles weather station wise but does aggravate me quite a bit on a base station here that I monitor one of the local
rescue agency systems that I maintain!  I'll find it one of these days when I have plenty of time to look LOL!!

Wayne
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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2008, 08:09:46 AM »
No known losses this week.  The only other thing I have done was to turn off the older of the two radio shack receivers...  I know they are just receivers, but I noticed that one was dropping more than the new one or the OS console.   So I took the batteries out.  The antenna on it was cracked.  I think someone mentioned this angle before, but is it somehow possible that the reciever was putting out some kind of interference?

Anyway, its only been 5 days, so I will keep monitoring. This killed my madis temp score for 27 days down to 90%, becasue it was happening at night I was reporting the evening temp till morning so was not capturing any of the lows for a few days. The 3 days score is back on track....

Andrew

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Offline tomwxman

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 01:19:23 PM »
...is it somehow possible that the reciever was putting out some kind of interference?
I wondered about that in Post #5, since the only appearances I have heard about for the --- problem is in systems w/multiple consoles.  :???:

Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2008, 01:26:00 PM »
We'll see.  I ran a shack and OS together since inception 3+ years ago.   The third was introduced after the problems started.   I actually bot the third because it was being liquidated, and it came with a sensor for the price of just a sensor.  And that was when I thought it was the actual sensor was dying... hoping it is this "simple"

Andrew


...is it somehow possible that the reciever was putting out some kind of interference?
I wondered about that in Post #5, since the only appearances I have heard about for the --- problem is in systems w/multiple consoles.  :???:

Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline sam2004gp

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2008, 01:53:54 PM »
I have 2 consoles and lost Channel Null alot.  All I did was relocate the sensor and that fixed it for me.  I have 2 OS-WMR968's reading channel 1 and two Radio Shack receivers (that is where i got my extra sensors) reading channel 1, and no problems there.
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Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2008, 12:13:45 AM »

 This killed my madis temp score for 27 days down to 90%, becasue it was happening at night I was reporting the evening temp till morning so was not capturing any of the lows for a few days. The 3 days score is back on track....

Andrew


I sure do know what a problem like that can do for your QC rating!!
I'm still suffering from a day of flat lined temp and humidity readings all the way back in August!
Everything  looks good of late but that longest period is a little less than impressive :)

I know the QC checking is there mainly for a tool to help maintain a high quality data stream and it's not always an indication of a fault when it shows it as a fault..but I
hate for something to be out of whack if I can correct it somehow ! Picky I know but I guess it never hurts to strive for the best one can do !
Hopefully your sensor will stay up and running clean!

Wayne
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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2008, 06:04:23 AM »
It would be nice if you could proactively delete a day or range of uploads.  data mulligan...
Andrew

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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 12:39:52 PM »
Well the good news lasted a week.  dropped last night after 9:20.. noticed this morning at 5:30 as I was out the door to work.

so its not;
-the extra shack reciever somehow transmitting ...
-the console (as it was duplicated on other recievers)
-the sensor, as I have tried several on channel one.
-my wireless ip camera
-the old thgr968
-should not be range, in use for 1 year at that location (old location was 3 times distance through a brick house).  clean line of site, next to a window from 2nd floor about 35 feet.


Since the vast majority of drops seem to happen at night, perhaps it is the theory of a local baby monitor.  Pretty sure its not mine, as it has been in use for 10 months, and issue only began a month ago..  Might be coincidence but this morning after I did a search to pick up the sensor, when I pulled out of my garage, my clicker did not work.  I had to press and hold, even move back up the driveway a bit.

I will move the sensor a little bit closer to the house, but if whatever is blocking is also preventing my garage door opener from working on the far opposite site of the house, I doubt 10 feet is going to help me.

Maybe I do need a RF scanner to track this down...

Andrew


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Offline talbert1952

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 02:54:00 PM »

Maybe I do need a RF scanner to track this down...

Andrew


Many amateur radio operators have equipment available that can find interference sources. If you know any amateur operators or if there is a local amateur radio club in your area get in touch with them before you buy a scanner.
Tom
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Offline mackbig

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 03:29:37 PM »
Thanks...
Andrew

Many amateur radio operators have equipment available that can find interference sources. If you know any amateur operators or if there is a local amateur radio club in your area get in touch with them before you buy a scanner.

Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline W Thomas

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Re: Channel 1 - Interference - wmr968
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 11:59:33 PM »
Well the good news lasted a week.  dropped last night after 9:20.. noticed this morning at 5:30 as I was out the door to work.

so its not;
-the extra shack reciever somehow transmitting ...
-the console (as it was duplicated on other recievers)
-the sensor, as I have tried several on channel one.
-my wireless ip camera
-the old thgr968
-should not be range, in use for 1 year at that location (old location was 3 times distance through a brick house).  clean line of site, next to a window from 2nd floor about 35 feet.


Since the vast majority of drops seem to happen at night, perhaps it is the theory of a local baby monitor.  Pretty sure its not mine, as it has been in use for 10 months, and issue only began a month ago..  Might be coincidence but this morning after I did a search to pick up the sensor, when I pulled out of my garage, my clicker did not work.  I had to press and hold, even move back up the driveway a bit.

I will move the sensor a little bit closer to the house, but if whatever is blocking is also preventing my garage door opener from working on the far opposite site of the house, I doubt 10 feet is going to help me.

Maybe I do need a RF scanner to track this down...

Andrew




I was hoping that maybe the problem was transmitter/receiver placement but guess it's never that easy huh?
If your garage door opener is having troubles whatever is doing it must be close or powerful :)
Chasing this stuff can be fun for sure! Brings back memories of a low band vhf remote base that stayed in fault more than it was up! I dragged a spectrum analyzer on and off of several mountain tops before finally determining it was one of those antenna preamps with a terrible overloaded front end and was oscillating!  Strange how the least likely sometimes IS the problem. And this one was so dang intermittent! Seemed like it knew when I was looking :)

Like mentioned before if you can locate a knowledgeable amateur operator close to your area they may have or have access to equipment that will help isolate the problem.. Most are same as me ..love a challenge :)

Good Luck on finding the culprit!


     Best Regards
     Wayne

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