Topic: If these three were all priced the same, which would you order first?

[galfert]

@galfert
You raise an interesting point, though I'm sure I don't fully understand its implications, as I've yet to even own a personal weather station. In this example, there is one manufacturing parent (wholesale only) source for parts; e.g., Fine Offset, with logo carrying resellers like Ambient, Ecowitt, Tycon - and perhaps even more rebranding by first language speaking companies worldwide - is that about the gist of what you're saying?

What isn't to me is the degree or level of software development, wholly or in part by Fine Offset engineers, and the depth of additional coding, if any, being written by these resellers, and the users of their rebranded (clone) equipment.

Yep, Fine Offset is the wholesale only manufacture, meaning they don't sell to the public and they don't put their logo on anything. Besides Ambient, Tycon, Ecowitt selling in the USA, there are also other re-sellers in other countries like Aercus, Misol, Froggit, Conrad, Maplin, Watson...and even more to the point that I think it would be almost impossible to name them all.

I've worked (freely consulted) with Ambient Weather on firmware bugs I've discovered and also on new features, to the point where they introduced me to a contact at Fine Offset to work with them directly on these firmware software issues. From that experience it tells me that Fine Offset is responsible for the firmware software development and Ambient is an overseer and they manage features dictated to Fine Offset. It is up to the branding reseller to dictate options and features that they want to support and they do have input on how some things work. So it seems that Fine Offset comes out with their products, they have input from their seller partners to some degree, and then the reseller has a parts bin to choose from as to what to sell. That is why if you look at Fine Offset's website you will notices some things that are not sold by Ambient, and likewise you see stuff from Tycon or Ecowitt that may slightly differ from what Ambient decided to carry. I also think Ambient being the largest reseller in the USA probably makes them the largest in the world too, well who knows there may be a reseller in China that I'm unaware of that may be even larger than Ambient. Well point being that Ambient is probably very important to Fine Offset. Ed of Ambient Weather has had a very important roll in product design and features from having directly communicated with him and from reading his multitude of messaging that he does. It is rather incredible how hard Ed works and how accessible he is to his customers and the level of support that he provides. That is another good selling quality of going with Ambient. Realize that Ambient Weather sells many other brands of weather stations too. Ed is the first one to tell you that he considers Ambient branded hardware (Fine Offset clones) not at the level of the highly regarded Davis Instruments and Rainwise which he also sells and supports. Ambient also sells many other brands. I don't think these brands compete with each other as they do play to different markets and types of buyers. That is another way that Ambient is different than a Tycon and Ecowitt which just sell Fine Offset clones. Ambient Weather also developed the highly popular at one point Virtual Weather Station software (VWS) that many Davis and Rainwise and Oregon Scientific and other brands used (and some people are still using). They have stopped development of VWS software as trend has been to move things into just the cloud, which is why Ambient invested in developing ambientweather.net. With Ambient's newest hardware you get free access to ambientweather.net which is something you don't get if you go with any other Fine Offset clone. Since Ambient sells the ready built Meteobridge which they call WeatherBridge (regular, Pro and Nano), that device also gains the ability to upload to ambientweather.net. So if you have a Davis system and you want access to ambientweather.net all you need is one of the WeatherBridge (Meteobridge) models. On the other hand if you make your own Meteobridge and you retroactively want access to ambientweather.net you'll need to pay Ambient $150 for that license.

* UPDATE - March 2020 - Ambientweather.net license for Meteobridge has new lower price, now just $100

Besides all this hardware parts bin mixing and matching the matched pairs (console and outdoor sensor array) have to obviously communicate on the same frequency to work. In the USA the frequency for Ambient, Tycon, and Ecowitt is 915 MHz. If you go to Europe where you can only buy from Aercus, Misol and Froggit for example the frequency of those is 433 MHz. So you can't mix and match one of those with a US 915 MHz re-seller version. I've read information from other people taking these devices apart and testing firmware from one re-seller into the device from a different re-seller that there are some interesting things to learn. There doesn't seem to be anything stopping one from loading firmware from one brand into another brand. From what I've seen it works with the new stuff, but do this at your own risk, I make no guarantee. Also from running firmware from one brand on another the frequency does not change. Further inspection of the hardware has revealed that the seemingly similar looking device has a different frequency chip in hardware. If you were adept at soldering you might be able to change the frequency by changing that part of the device and it might still work.

[galfert]

MacGarage,

Oh I just realized from your other video that you are not using the Buford T. Justice zip tie bird spike kit. You are using the bird spike kit that Ecowitt has designed themselves that is not yet available for sale. I should have expected that as I knew about this. That is probably why you didn't comment of maybe not stumble on the DIY zip tie bird spikes. But please add your input to those threads I listed regarding the bird spike topic, with a link to you nice video!

If anyone is interested in this from Ecowitt you can read about it here:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34971.0

User Lucy is an Ecowitt employee.

[MacGarage]

MacGarage,
Very nice review on YouTube. I saw your nice Snap-on tools in the vid. I would have thought you were MacGarage because of Mac Tools so not expecting Snap-on. I kid, I think you are MacGarage because of Apple. Still funny.

I see you did the Buford T. Justice mod with the zip tie bird spikes. I have not seen you comment in the threads about that though.
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=35254.0
and
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=35387.0

This Ecowitt and Tycon design from Fine Offset has the same exact features as the Ambient WS-2902A outdoor Osprey sensor array used by both the WS-2000 and the WS-2902A. I'm wondering why Fine Offset bothered to have designed seemingly two exact outdoor sensor models. Maybe the difference is internal in the actual sensors used. I wonder if these non-Ambient also have the SHT30 Sensirion sensor or something else.

Actually…my username is geared more to Macintosh…but it does come in handy when dealing with mechanical related items (vintage motorcycles, garden tractors, etc.). Did work my way through my early years of college as GM auto tech and that has come in very handy…even as a President/CEO of a large organization now.

The ProWeatherStation listed on Amazon does look the same and the price is great. I think it is the same as the Fine Offset WT2310 (http://www.foshk.com/Weather_Professional/WT2310.html) I am wondering about parts/support down the road if these smaller companies elect to stop selling them. I tried the Fine Offset software for Mac with my Ecowitt and it did not work.

Regarding the bird spikes…they were provided by Ecowitt to me and I do not believe they are selling them yet. I do get swarms of starlings at times and they land everywhere. My farm fence is a favorite for robins and bluebirds…and an occasional red hawk.

[Buford T. Justice]

I sent Tycon an email asking what frequency the TP3000WC uses.  They replied it is 433 MHz.  The 2700 version is 915 MHz.

Their Spec Sheet for the TP3000WC says 433 MHz, but their User Guide says 915 MHz 

[galfert]

I sent Tycon an email asking what frequency the TP3000WC uses.  They replied it is 433 MHz.  The 2700 version is 915 MHz.

Their Spec Sheet for the TP3000WC says 433 MHz, but their User Guide says 915 MHz 

Hard to say which is right. I do think that the manual is from Fine Offset and they may have missed editing the English version. The manual is shared among branding resellers. So if the manual says 915 MHz that could be an error. The spec sheet though was designed internally by Tycon, so if that says 433 MHz then it might be the more credible document.

Tycon 2700 console sold separately prominently indicates 433 MHz
http://tycononline.com/TP2700WC-433Mhz-Base-Station_p_243.html

I'm leaning into thinking that all Tycon is 433 MHz.

Besides 915 MHz and 433 MHz, some Fine Offset clones are set to use 868 MHz. But those are more rare I feel. Conrad is one brand that I know uses 868 MHz.

I was curious about what brand you would find in China. So I poked around the map in HK region and elsewhere. Seems like Ambient is everywhere in China. You can tell from the WU station reported software version, as you can't really go by model number because that field is freely able to be changed by the station owner to match anything they want. So it looks like Ambient is the most prevalent brand of the Fine Offset clones.

[Buford T. Justice]

They replied back that it is definitely 433 MHz, and that they will correct the User Guide.

[kbellis]

I was curious about what brand you would find in China. So I poked around the map in HK region and elsewhere. Seems like Ambient is everywhere in China. You can tell from the WU station reported software version, as you can't really go by model number because that field is freely able to be changed by the station owner to match anything they want. So it looks like Ambient is the most prevalent brand of the Fine Offset clones.

@galfert - That sounds interesting. Do you happen to know if one could download a database of PWSs which include location, PWS manufacturer, and model?; e.g., from WU?

[galfert]

I was curious about what brand you would find in China. So I poked around the map in HK region and elsewhere. Seems like Ambient is everywhere in China. You can tell from the WU station reported software version, as you can't really go by model number because that field is freely able to be changed by the station owner to match anything they want. So it looks like Ambient is the most prevalent brand of the Fine Offset clones.

@galfert - That sounds interesting. Do you happen to know if one could download a database of PWSs which include location, PWS manufacturer, and model?; e.g., from WU?

Yes there is a database. You can't exactly download it. You have to export it from your browser. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of data. It locks up the browser and is therefore difficult to export. At one point I needed help, but recently I've perfected the technique and I've been able to do it myself. Originally I was only able to do one state at a time.

The bad news is that the database is only for the US.

You can read about this and my analysis in the following thread:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34900.0

[kbellis]

Wow - nicely done!

I have been thinking about doing the almost exact same thing, but geospatially. The outlined method of harvesting data seems cumbersome, but if my earlier inquiries to WU go unanswered, I'll try it. Just this morning I wrote to WU:

I am requesting a database of PWSs which include at a minimum: PWS location, PWS manufacturer, and model. Having links to their respective weather stations would also be interesting.

I plan on mapping these data to show PWS by manufacturer and subsets of model. 

[kbellis]

Apparently, using the data mining technique you've outlined, the fields for location are limited to NEIGHBORHOOD and CITY. Some records contain the state (two-letter abbreviation) within the NEIGHBORHOOD field, and even an occasional street address. No actual positional lat/ long data is provided. Spatial data can be seen; however, only by one click at a time for each listed station.

Out of 1152 stations listed in Maine, only 885 stations list STATION TYPE and SITE,  which looks to possibly mean MANUFACTURER and MODEL.



 

[galfert]

Kbellis,
Thanks. I had fun doing that analysis. It was a big curiosity to find out how well each brand/model sold in regards to people choosing to use WU.

Plotting the WU stations on a map by type as you want can be done. It would take some work, but all the data is there. The list includes the WU station ID. With the station ID you can do a lookup and run a script to scrape the latitude and longitude and save it back to a file (database). Then you merge your newly created station ID with location database with the existing database that lists manufacture model. Now you can plot on a map with your new file and color code the map by station type. I can totally see this as doable. But I'm not interested in the work. I'm an IT guy but more of manager and systems/network person and not much of coder. I dabble and can edit code but it really isn't my thing.

Good luck with WU on your email request for the database. Let us know if you get anywhere with that. I would be interested in that data if they were able to provide other countries than the US.

The stations you mentioned that don't have station type and site are MADIS stations. Those all begin with Mxxxxx. Those are stations that are reporting to CWOP, hence they show up on MADIS. And the list includes a few other NWS MADIS stations. So those stations are not directly reporting into WU, rather WU is bringing them in. Therefore you can ignore those as a great majority of those that report to CWOP also report to WU, so a great majority are duplicates in that sense.

[kbellis]

Melissa just wrote back indicating that this dataset isn't something that is on hand. While she didn't explain, I imagine it may have to do with how their HTML pages get generated on the fly through SQL. She also indicated that she would check with the PWS team to see what might be possible along these lines.

What you propose about scripting a scrape of positions and saving them back to the database, is that something you might consider doing? The mapping part I can handle through Global Mapper, and possibly I could write a script specifically for Global Mapper to try and do this, but if you already know how to script and save the positions, it probably would be faster, if you were game, than my efforts as I'm quite new to all of the PWS stuff.

Ideally, it might be something WU could consider doing since they're the stewards of our data, and they already have an interactive mapping platform through Mapbox / OpenStreetMap showing PWS with weather data. What I've suggested to Melissa would be to add another toggled data layer to the already existing list.

For example, the existing menu could be expanded and when manufacturer was chosen the PWS symbology would dynamically change from the current dataset of symbols.

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[galfert]

I'm really not qualified to do the script. I can't justify the effort when I know that just asking someone else who codes to help would produce a much less effort better result solution. It would probably take them less than hour to come up with something and test it. You give them the input file with the station IDs and they take it and use it to run a script they code to scrape the position and save it to a file with the matching stations ID. Then merge their output file with station brand/model and you now have your map input file.

So here we are....who would like to volunteer and help write a script to scrape WU station position and save it back to a file?

Too bad that WU couldn't provide the data. That is the response I expected, which is why I never asked. But it is good to know now.

The idea you have of having Wundermap show stations by type is something that I'm not sure provides much value to people consuming weather information. Sure it might seem interesting to you and me and others that have weather stations, but we are the minority of the traffic they get. Then take into account the multitude of problems and issues that WU has promised to fix that are very important and it is a big list and you quickly realize that this idea probably will not be implemented anytime soon or even much later.

[kbellis]

Wow - an hour. I don't know any coders that could this so quickly.

I heard back fro WU and they said, "I'm afraid it's not what you want to hear, but I can confirm that no, we do not provide this data. The information is available separately on our site for viewing, but we are not able to pull it together in this type of manner.". I replied, "Moving forward, would Weather Underground/ IBM consider developing a Web Mapping Service? I think this could be a very popular offering by Weather Underground which could include additional QC data for scientific analysis and environmental studies. Just a thought.".

As for my puny efforts scripting something in Global Mapper to fetch data using a Global Mapper script from WU, that was quickly quashed. After hearing back from my friend and Global Mapper guru, who said, "This is really a job for a true coding environment where you can do anything.".

I don't think it hurts to ask, though don't expect WU to offer a WMS anytime soon, but at least a small seed may fall on fertile ground.

This week I made a cold inquiry with one of our state's larger utility companies to remove three large and healthy spruce trees. I cited many reasons, though excluded mentioning how much more nicely it would make for siting my PWS (post-Christmas

Amazingly, they were gone in less than three hours! And now, we have a much improved view of the sky from our little lot in the city.

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This was shot Tuesday, the morning of my request. The next day we had strong wind gusts, but that's when my wife first spotted the tree crew scoping out the project. On Thursday morning, the crew from Milo, Maine was again in Ellsworth and got started about 8:00.

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After living here for 30 years with an obstructed view of the west, I'm still a in awe of the improved view and thankful to the utility company for this service.
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[kbellis]

So here we are....who would like to volunteer and help write a script to scrape WU station position and save it back to a file?

Maybe some day.

[WXman]

What's up with Ambient's shipping costs?  $35+ dollars for shipping??    That's unheard of these days and significantly changes the comparison of ordering from Ambient versus picking another station elsewhere.

[BKS97]

It appears the WS-2000 is now out of stock at Ambient Weather.

https://www.ambientweather.com/amws2000.html

[kbellis]

@wxman - Yes, the WS-2902A is cheaper on Amazon with Prime.

[kbellis]

@bks97 - Yes, the WS-2000 hasn't been in stock for sometime.