Author Topic: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!  (Read 10791 times)

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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2017, 10:51:33 PM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). You can quickly see the temps rise when it's switched off, even in a 10-15mph breeze. Interestingly, during a rain storm last night, the humidity increased with the fan on and decreased with it off (for some reason, I thought the fan might decrease humidity by artificially drying the air). So, the fan really does a good job.

This is in a new DFARS enclosure and a with a new SHT31 temp/hum sensor (required -0.9 correction applied to all consoles). At 24 cfm, it's relatively quiet. You start to hear it from maybe five or six feet away.

I read elsewhere on this forum that the corners of the fan would need to be slightly shaved in order for it to fit into the fan chamber. I used a hand-held file on each corner of the aluminum frame:



Installed in DFARS with a tight fit:




Final installation:


Awesome job, looks great.  =D>
I've done the file corners also but only do the 4-lower (toward sensor) so I can wedge fan in without movement.
Operating temp on your fan is 14 to 230°F. 22 CFM should work perfect at full speed. It will probably work below 14° but just not at rated capacity plus at those temps it won't be needed as much.
 
http://www.acinfinity.com/axial-ac-fan-kits/axial-8025-muffin-115v-ac-cooling-fan-80mm-x-80mm-x-25mm/

Randy

Offline CW2274

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2017, 12:13:50 AM »
That's probably the most professional PWS setup I've seen on this board. You should be proud of your work, I sure as hell would be. =D>

Offline gvmelbrty

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2017, 12:16:46 AM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). You can quickly see the temps rise when it's switched off, even in a 10-15mph breeze. Interestingly, during a rain storm last night, the humidity increased with the fan on and decreased with it off (for some reason, I thought the fan might decrease humidity by artificially drying the air). So, the fan really does a good job.

This is in a new DFARS enclosure and a with a new SHT31 temp/hum sensor (required -0.9 correction applied to all consoles). At 24 cfm, it's relatively quiet. You start to hear it from maybe five or six feet away.

I read elsewhere on this forum that the corners of the fan would need to be slightly shaved in order for it to fit into the fan chamber. I used a hand-held file on each corner of the aluminum frame: [...snip...]

Awesome job, looks great.  =D>
I've done the file corners also but only do the 4-lower (toward sensor) so I can wedge fan in without movement.
Operating temp on your fan is 14 to 230°F. 22 CFM should work perfect at full speed. It will probably work below 14° but just not at rated capacity plus at those temps it won't be needed as much.
 
http://www.acinfinity.com/axial-ac-fan-kits/axial-8025-muffin-115v-ac-cooling-fan-80mm-x-80mm-x-25mm/

Thanks! .. I started out filing down just the lower four corners, but I struggled getting it to slide down into the chamber. I was finally able to get a perfect tight fit doing all eight - but, you're right, there was a risk of over doing it. Lucked out on that one. Though, I suppose I could have inserted a strip or two of electrical tape along the corners to tighten it up if that had been necessary.

Hum.. I guess my Celsius conversion was wrong.. I thought this fan was rated for a lower temp. I'm close to 7000ft and we'll get below 14°F several times in the winter... it'll be fun to see if she can take it! .. I'll report back in Jan.

Again, thanks for your help with finding a suitable AC fan for this project.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 12:25:06 AM by gvmelbrty »

Offline gvmelbrty

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2017, 12:24:10 AM »
That's probably the most professional PWS setup I've seen on this board. You should be proud of your work, I sure as hell would be. =D>

Thank you very much! ... I'll have many more details about the installation when I -finally- -some day- finish the web site.

Offline Bashy

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2017, 12:44:21 AM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). You can quickly see the temps rise when it's switched off, even in a 10-15mph breeze. Interestingly, during a rain storm last night, the humidity increased with the fan on and decreased with it off (for some reason, I thought the fan might decrease humidity by artificially drying the air). So, the fan really does a good job.

This is in a new DFARS enclosure and a with a new SHT31 temp/hum sensor (required -0.9 correction applied to all consoles). At 24 cfm, it's relatively quiet. You start to hear it from maybe five or six feet away.

I read elsewhere on this forum that the corners of the fan would need to be slightly shaved in order for it to fit into the fan chamber. I used a hand-held file on each corner of the aluminum frame:



Installed in DFARS with a tight fit:




Final installation:


Excellent job :)

Regards to the WeMo you said it can IFTTT, eg winds < xxMPH etc, i take it this isnt winds from your own station
but perhaps the local forecast or something?

Just read up on them, it says it can read from any data source on the net   :shock: so in theory it can read our stations
data from our websites?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 12:53:00 AM by Bashy »
Kind regards
Bashy

Offline gvmelbrty

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2017, 01:19:35 AM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). [...snip...]

Excellent job :)

Regards to the WeMo you said it can IFTTT, eg winds < xxMPH etc, i take it this isnt winds from your own station
but perhaps the local forecast or something?

Thank you.

Using the Meteobridge I have connected to my console, I can construct an event trigger based on data from my wx station (temp, wind, rain, etc), along with (optionally) time/date variables, which, when triggered, will send an email or text to IFTTT commanding the WeMo Smart Plug to turn on/off.

The same should be possible with any wx software (WeatherCat, Weather Display, Cumulus, etc.) that features sensor triggers and email/text alerts.

I use a variation of this method to turn my rain bucket heater on/off when in starts/stops to snow. But in this case, it uses IFTTT's "current conditions" feature instead of actual data from my station. This is because after two-years of observations, I was unable to construct a sensor trigger that, by itself, could reliably fire when it was actually snowing. Since IFTTT switched to WeatherUnderground for its weather service a couple years ago, the "current conditions" snow trigger works very well (for my area).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:25:46 AM by gvmelbrty »

Offline Bashy

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2017, 01:38:04 AM »
Thank you for the reply,
Ideally i am wanting to, If sunset, reduce voltage, if sunrise revert but i dont think thats possible?
That idea is to slow the fan in the shield


Scrub the above, thats not possible now i've thought about it, but i wonder if this is

Are you saying it could, read my leaf wetness data from an email from WD,   if leaf wetness >1 turn on plug

I am trying to automate my to reduce power consumption, my leaf is not actually for that, its used
as a rain duration sensor (activates rain icon as soon as >1) and i have a heater in there so its
responsive when it stops raining, at the moment its on 24/7
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 02:49:21 AM by Bashy »
Kind regards
Bashy

Offline SpartanWX

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2017, 01:43:34 AM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). You can quickly see the temps rise when it's switched off, even in a 10-15mph breeze. Interestingly, during a rain storm last night, the humidity increased with the fan on and decreased with it off (for some reason, I thought the fan might decrease humidity by artificially drying the air). So, the fan really does a good job.
How does a fan "artificially dry the air"?  The air is the air. Plain and simple. This is a basic underlying principle of that which we are trying so hard to observe.

It cracks me up a bit "ooooh a little fan is good so a bigger fan must be better... but not too big or it will artificially dry the air" with no real understanding of what it is that is going on.

Offline Bashy

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2017, 01:46:59 AM »
I just installed the AC fan referenced above per @ValentineWeather's suggestion (thanks for your help by the way). I have it plugged into a WeMo wifi switch, so I can easily turn the fan on/off manually via the Internet .. and automatically via parameters, such as, "fan off IF avg-wind >20 AND time-of-day = night" (but as of now, I plan to leave it on 24/7). You can quickly see the temps rise when it's switched off, even in a 10-15mph breeze. Interestingly, during a rain storm last night, the humidity increased with the fan on and decreased with it off (for some reason, I thought the fan might decrease humidity by artificially drying the air). So, the fan really does a good job.
How does a fan "artificially dry the air"?  The air is the air. Plain and simple. This is a basic underlying principle of that which we are trying so hard to observe.

It cracks me up a bit "ooooh a little fan is good so a bigger fan must be better... but not too big or it will artificially dry the air" with no real understanding of what it is that is going on.


Instead of mocking, educate us so we can learn?
Kind regards
Bashy

Offline gvmelbrty

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:33 PM »
A follow-up on my fan install.. The AC fan pictured in my previous post turned out to be the wrong one. Amazon switched fans, but kept the same product link, and I didn't look closely at the specs. It's only rated for +14F (-10C). I need a fan that can handle lower temps. (Thanks @ValentineWeather for pointing this out!)

Also, while I had it installed, I noticed my temps where running high. Using an infrared gun, I checked the fan motor temperature while it was running - it read 110-115F. I realized I should not have the fan placed so far down the fan housing as it put the motor within an inch of the temp sensor. I moved it to the top of the opening and temps were more normal.

But, since I needed a new fan anyway, I wanted to try out a DC fan instead, as I had read here they run cooler.

I decided on the Noctua NF-A8 ULN fan. This is a high-quality whisper-quiet fan that can run at two speeds, 20 CFM (1400 RPM) or 15 CFM (1100 RPM), (which is close to the standard Davis DC fan speed). The motor temp after one hour of operation was 68F, basically ambient temp - much lower than AC fans. Operating tolerance is rated at -4F (-20C), (which is better, but still may not be able to handle winter temps here - we'll see).

Only the lower corners of the fan frame were filed-down this time. The upper corners were left intact so that the fan rests on top of the fan opening. I used metal tape instead of rope caulk to seal around the fan. The Lunar Module:



Because DC fans require a power adapter, it was necessary to install a weather-proof enclosure near the DFARS. (A 24in 3-pin fan extension cable was also needed.):




If it turns out this fan can't handle winter temps here, after much searching, I found a 80mm 12v DC fan, NMB 08015JE-12M-BA-F0, 22 CFM, that is meant for installation in freezers and is rated for -40F (-40C) on the low end (but only 104F (40C) on the high end - so possibly not suited for hot areas). (Also, if desired, fan speed for 12v fans such as this one can be reduced using a resistor cable (Noctua includes one of these with the fan shown above).)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:03:24 AM by gvmelbrty »

Offline CW2274

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2017, 07:35:53 PM »
 =D&gt;

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2017, 07:44:05 PM »
Interesting about the fan temperatures being so high on the one fan. I'll test the old Cooltron model no longer available and the Mechatronics UF80B12 BTH and report back. I'm letting fans get down to room temperature currently. 
Randy

Offline gvmelbrty

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2017, 07:47:08 PM »
Interesting about the fan temperatures being so high on the one fan. I'll test the old Cooltron model no longer available and the Mechatronics UF80B12 BTH and report back. I'm letting fans get down to room temperature currently.

FYI: When I hit the fans with the infrared gun, I found out you get two different temp readings for each side of the fan. The intake side, which is the side facing the temp sensor, runs much hotter than the exhaust side. Therefore, my tests were done with the fans uninstalled so I could access both sides of the fans. Reported temps are for the hotter intake side after one hour of operation.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:11:56 PM by gvmelbrty »

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2017, 09:00:57 PM »
The Mechatronics UF80B12 BTH rated at -40c is running warmer than Cooltron FA8025-51 rated at -20c.  Bearing temperatures started at 73F and rose to 96F Mechatronics, Cooltron 86F on inlet side. 
I really don't think it's an issue unless mounting sensor overly close to fan. I've been running the warmer Mechatronics since last year side by side with Davis and on cold days even below 0F they ran close the biggest difference was response time.
Randy

Offline SpartanWX

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2017, 12:35:46 AM »
You folks realize that putting anything the generates heat... INSIDE the chamber (or even in the path of the airflow)... is the antithesis of what they are trying to accomplish with all that shielding.


Offline CW2274

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2017, 01:02:23 AM »
You folks realize that putting anything the generates heat... INSIDE the chamber (or even in the path of the airflow)... is the antithesis of what they are trying to accomplish with all that shielding.
IF the fan was located underneath the sensor in the chamber, I'd completely agree, and would never buy such a poor design. Exactly why the fan is positioned the way it is, heat rises, and the fan surely helps the process by sucking it's own heat (which in my case and probably most others, is non-existent for arguments sake) away from the sensor.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2017, 01:09:03 AM »
You folks realize that putting anything the generates heat... INSIDE the chamber (or even in the path of the airflow)... is the antithesis of what they are trying to accomplish with all that shielding.
IF the fan was located underneath the sensor in the chamber, I'd completely agree, and would never buy such a poor design. Exactly why the fan is positioned the way it is, heat rises, and the fan surely helps the process by sucking it's own heat (which in my case and probably most others, is non-existent for arguments sake) away from the sensor.

Exactly it's not an issue I can see unless its extreme heat. Even at -28F I'm seeing no difference in sensor temperatures between the solar and AC fan other than speed of sensor change the AC always responds quicker to changes.
Randy

Offline SpartanWX

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2017, 08:54:48 AM »
You folks realize that putting anything the generates heat... INSIDE the chamber (or even in the path of the airflow)... is the antithesis of what they are trying to accomplish with all that shielding.
IF the fan was located underneath the sensor in the chamber, I'd completely agree, and would never buy such a poor design. Exactly why the fan is positioned the way it is, heat rises, and the fan surely helps the process by sucking it's own heat (which in my case and probably most others, is non-existent for arguments sake) away from the sensor.

Heat does not explicitly rise. Or the sun would not warm us, no?

Radiant heat radiates in all directions from the source. It's right there in the name even: Fan Aspirated RADIATION Shield.

But carry on. You guys look like you are having fun.

Offline Bashy

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2017, 08:57:21 AM »
Perhaps, but then wouldn't the fan suck out any heat created fron the fan.
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Offline SpartanWX

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2017, 09:13:03 AM »
Perhaps, but then wouldn't the fan suck out any heat created fron the fan.
I think what you are trying ask is does the increase in convection offset the radiation. It may or may not. That's math.

Stand under one of those infrared heaters at the bus stop on a cold windy day. Can you still feel the heat?

Offline Bashy

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2017, 09:26:43 AM »
Pass, we dot have such luxuries :D

I think the suction far out weighs any fan heat, most certainly in regards to mine
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2017, 03:32:42 PM »
You folks realize that putting anything the generates heat... INSIDE the chamber (or even in the path of the airflow)... is the antithesis of what they are trying to accomplish with all that shielding.
IF the fan was located underneath the sensor in the chamber, I'd completely agree, and would never buy such a poor design. Exactly why the fan is positioned the way it is, heat rises, and the fan surely helps the process by sucking it's own heat (which in my case and probably most others, is non-existent for arguments sake) away from the sensor.

Heat does not explicitly rise. Or the sun would not warm us, no?

Apparently your physics class was different than mine. Maybe this will help. http://www.mansfieldct.org/schools/MMS/staff/hand/convcondrad.htm 

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2017, 04:33:00 PM »
With high confidence I can say the bearing temperature on AC fan doesn't impact temperatures. Bearings are size of finger tip and the only heat source. The fan casing temperatures actually dropped when I tested yesterday with thermal gun and with everything exhausting out the top I don't see any increase at sensor.

Today cloud cover so no solar advantage with higher speed AC fan with the warmer bearings 96° #1 AC fan and #4 Davis solar are side by side while #5 is my Rainwise backup unit located about 20' away.

All have SHT31's and temperatures within .1 all day. Biggest difference is humidity with #4 sensor reading 2-3% lower but it always reads lower humidity in mid ranges but catches up as humidity rises into 90's.
Randy

Offline SpartanWX

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2017, 06:08:42 PM »
With high confidence I can say the bearing temperature on AC fan doesn't impact temperatures. Bearings are size of finger tip and the only heat source. The fan casing temperatures actually dropped when I tested yesterday with thermal gun and with everything exhausting out the top I don't see any increase at sensor.

Today cloud cover so no solar advantage with higher speed AC fan with the warmer bearings 96° #1 AC fan and #4 Davis solar are side by side while #5 is my Rainwise backup unit located about 20' away.

All have SHT31's and temperatures within .1 all day. Biggest difference is humidity with #4 sensor reading 2-3% lower but it always reads lower humidity in mid ranges but catches up as humidity rises into 90's.
Bearings are the heat source? Didn't realize they were making 100% efficient  AC motors these days. Learn something new every day!

Offline CW2274

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Re: Just installed an A/C fan into my VP2!
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2017, 06:38:49 PM »
With high confidence I can say the bearing temperature on AC fan doesn't impact temperatures. Bearings are size of finger tip and the only heat source. The fan casing temperatures actually dropped when I tested yesterday with thermal gun and with everything exhausting out the top I don't see any increase at sensor.

Today cloud cover so no solar advantage with higher speed AC fan with the warmer bearings 96° #1 AC fan and #4 Davis solar are side by side while #5 is my Rainwise backup unit located about 20' away.

All have SHT31's and temperatures within .1 all day. Biggest difference is humidity with #4 sensor reading 2-3% lower but it always reads lower humidity in mid ranges but catches up as humidity rises into 90's.
Didn't realize they were making 100% efficient  AC motors these days.
Seriously? If a motor was SO inefficient as to cause heat to be transferred to the sensor, you'd eventually be replacing a burned up motor. These are case fans, not 100 HP building ventilation fans.