Author Topic: StarDot NetCamLIVE  (Read 2617 times)

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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 05:53:23 PM »
I'm disappointed in warm weather performance so far. Both days it got into 80's camera started flaking out using standard IP ventilated shelter.

Internal camera temperature was 134-137F range both times so moved camera to north side of building and still got image changing to nice red/green/ B&W no color all within seconds. As soon as temperature drops below this range camera settles out to normal again.
 
I called and spoke with Anthony at Stardot and he said its not normal, camera should be able to go much hotter. He also said camera may have been trying to go into night mode but this camera doesn't have this function.
Pretty sure I have a bad unit. I'll be waiting for warm weather again so I can call them to visually see the melt down.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2017, 06:36:58 PM »
Yea, it's likely something about that particular camera. This camera was designed (by me) to run a very nice temperature range. Greater than other IP cameras I know of.   

However, there is one other possibility in your case, besides defective camera.  In an outdoor enclosure, with the sun shining on the enclosure, the temperature of the imaging device can exceed it's working 158F (which is more like 185F),  while the camera's temp sensor at the back of the camera will read lower when you check the camera temp. They're located somewhat far apart.

So unless it got to 110F that day and you had sun shining on the enclosure, I wouldn't expect that to happen.  And 137F is far from anything I'd worry about. 

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2017, 07:06:45 PM »
Dan first time camera was in direct sunlight it completely went out with smeared colored lines all you could see.
 
So moved on north side of garage under eve but it continued. I've added some more cover with larger older shield and some 5R insulation between the 2 covers and opened hole on backside. Prior to opening hole I was getting the changing colors but it wasn't smearing out like first time.
Camera eventually gets in sun even on north side this time of year and will especially going into summer where 3 or more hours of sun during evening. 

I can't tell you what internal temp was first time I didn't have indication turned on.
 
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2017, 07:21:29 PM »
Do you have any smeared pics you can send to Anthony?  I'd like to see them.

There's several conditions that might be called "smeared", going all the way back to the 1980s with "blooming" (thank god that's nearly gone from modern censors).

By the way, since this is a discussion forum, here's something that puzzles me about your camera in particular.  It seems that you got one with an IR filter, which is definitely an option.

However, the LIVE camera is NOT a security camera.  At night, the settings just let it go dark. It's a live view camera. It shouldn't get too noisy in order to show images at night.  YouTube sort of hates the data rate to change suddenly. as it does with noisy images at night.  So the original idea was, at night go dark, don't try to get noisy images of intruders or car accidents as a security camera should.

But, weather guys in particular like to tinker with the controls.  Maybe they use the presets, which is highly recommended, but then they like to tweak it.

And (maybe unfortunately), they're pretty technical compared to security camera guys. So they can end up tinkering with the best youtube friendly settings quite a bit.

Aside from the smearing you mentioned, the few Anthony showed me looked like the IR settings were changed.  But that wouldn't be temperature dependent, and the result could only match 1 of the 4 definitions of smearing that I know of, one that seems unlikely to me.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2017, 07:37:04 PM »
This camera doesn't have IR filter. Anthony wanted me to shut it off because the B&W images I sent he thought it did and was going into IR mode. 
The colors of red, green, B&W all happen within seconds and it goes back to normal for a few seconds and repeats again over and over.

I didn't get any images while it was smearing.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2017, 04:52:31 PM »
Modified the camera shelter by adding 7 more holes on bottom using largest size drill bit I had. Covered holes with screen material to keep critters out. The highest temperature expected this week is low 80's over weekend. It was 35F this morning, the lowest camera temperature I noticed was current temperature 118.4F where its been steady all day.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2017, 05:51:48 PM »
It's always good to keep the temp down!  The original XL was even a few inches longer, which was better for heat dissipation.  We shortened this one as much as possible, but the math just doesn't allow smaller.  Our competitor shrunk his camera just to look high-tech, then paid with dram crashes in the field.  We never get those, but at very high or very low temps, the sensor can start to have visual artifacts.


Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2017, 08:23:14 PM »
Camera is going nuts now. Full black screen currently. Was doing the red and green just before going full black.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 10:47:36 AM by ValentineWeather »
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2017, 01:36:38 PM »
Do you have an autoiris lens?  And can you set the IR to "off"?


Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2017, 02:07:25 PM »
I don't see IR setting. Under misc. I do have option for auto iris but its unchecked. Lens has no night vision it goes dark at night and is the standard lens camera came with. Purchased from California PC.
 
This was happening while streaming to YouTube during sunset and warmest time of day. I removed the stream  yesterday so it did better but image did go into B&W again but didn't freak out with red, green or all black.
 
I would like to replace camera I feel under load while working this camera is stressing with sunset glare. Its not looking into sun but still happens. Without streaming (working hard) or idle mode it does better but that's not why I got the camera.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2017, 02:24:33 PM »
Certainly you can replace it!   Work it out with Anthony, I'll tell him it's at my request. 

I'll take a good look at it when it arrives, so we can learn from it.  Don't change ANYTHING in the internal settings.

Going B&W is a software function. It's really nothing to do with IR light these days. in the old days of CYMG sensors, perhaps you could say it was a hardware function (adding 2 pixels together back then, make BW).  But now days, with bayer filter arrangements, no 2 pixels can add to make BW, it's all mathmatics.

The IR light passes equally though all the colored filters when the IR filter is opened, making weird pink pictures. So camera makers typically desaturate the images, which makes them go BW. You could do the same by setting the saturation control to 0.

Since the LIVE cameras have no IR filter mechanism,  I'll want to look at the controls carefully to  understand how it could ever go BW.  One very remote possibility is that the signal to tell the computer that the IR filter is fixed, and cannot be opened, got some grime or moisture on it, and it signaling that there is indeed an IR filter mechanism.  I saw it happen about 6 years ago. 








Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2017, 02:40:43 PM »
Okay thanks Dan.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline Feelgood Ranch

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2017, 03:38:37 PM »
Great seeing the support of Dan representing StarDot.
Refreshing in today's world.

Ken Keyes
RainWise MkIII-LR, WeatherView 32 v8, StarDotXL 3mp cam, Boltek PCI lightning detector/L2K, CWOP/CW4669, Weather For You
http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KMTBOZEM2&wuSelect=PWS
http://www.anythingweather.com/current.aspx?id=22721

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2017, 01:30:47 PM »
Replacement camera came back in business.  =D>
https://www.valentinenebraska.net/youtube.php
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 02:21:38 PM »
Your camera certainly had issues. I haven't seen that before.  Eventually I'll open it up and find the cause, if I can't discern it without disturbing it too much.







Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 02:32:00 PM »
Your camera certainly had issues. I haven't seen that before.  Eventually I'll open it up and find the cause, if I can't discern it without disturbing it too much.

Thanks Dan for the info.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2017, 12:03:34 PM »
Well ISP called and said they are limiting upload to 2MB upload due to system being stressed. Apparently my cameras were using 3/4 the towns upload bandwidth causing issues. So long story short If anyone wants a near new Startdot Live for streaming on Youtube send me a pm.
 
I can still stream one of the Hikvisions being they have high compression only using 1/2 MB or so.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2017, 02:34:54 PM »
We've studied this bitrate issue a lot, mostly to help our customers in the field. 

We've also studied the use of live streaming by weather people, thus my interest in this group. 
We're actively planning future cameras around the needs of weather people, with exotic features so good that I'll get into trouble if I reveal them before we finish.

However, new products take a long time and so for now I'd like to help you comply with that internet provider.

I've never seen more than a 30% difference in bit rates among IP cameras. So I looked up Hikvision's bit rate recommendations. Their 720p 30fps at "best" quality requires 6144Kb. At the lowest quality they recommend, it still needs 3072Kb.   If it's streaming to YouTube on less than that, it's likely because the Hikvision can't stream there on its own and a computer is re-compressing the stream for it.  Computers have lots of GPUs they can use,  lots of memory, and that Pentium itself is no slouch.   So they can significantly lower the rate in ways a little IP camera can't.   They can also tinker with the quality settings and lower them when they're causing traffic issues, unknown to you.

But if you need a computer in order to stream a brand of IP camera, the streaming becomes less reliable due to more equipment in the path to go wrong.

We set our default for 720p at 4000, well towards the lowest Hikvision recommends.  And  there's lots of code in our cameras to automatically drop the bit rate if the internet provider is having trouble.   If you want to know what's happening precisely, put this in your overlay:

   Q: $Sq D: $Sd P: $Sz  $Sb   

Q=current quality setting (higher is lower quality), D=dropped frames, P=pauses to try to help out the internet provider, and the $Sb is the actual current bitrate in use, regardless of what you have specified in the setup menu.

If you used up half the town's bitrate, that's going to be reflected in a much lower actual bitrate on the overlay. You might be surprised at what bit rate it's actually running.  1200 is common for 720p. However, allowing up to 4000 in the setup menu does mean, when it can, it'll use up 4000 even if it needs to adjust to unnecessarily high quality settings.

Knowing your internet provider is keeping tabs, you can set it not to do that by tinkering with the values,  after you use the presets.  Always start with the presets, then tinker if you must.  It's possible to get decent views as low as 400, and one train station we helped had to run at 150 for a while, due to poor internet service.

You could adjust your 720p bitrate down to 1200 on the H.264 tab. Then set the quality to 30 instead of the default. The quality is actually compression ratio, so 30 is more compression than the 16 default.  What that'll do is, tell the camera that even if it can use up to 1200 by increasing the quality, don't bother if you are at least at 30.  That's defined as high quality in the H.264 standard. Then it won't use up bandwidth needlessly trying to reach the limit you set.

Also consider, though people claim to be able to see the difference between 30fps and 20fps, I've tested a few "experts".   Their guess is not much better than 50/50 when looking at a 20fps stream.  So you could set the frame rate of that 720p to 20fps, and lower the quality to 1000.  If you lower the frame rate, always lower the bitrate too or the lower frame rate won't help. It should still be fairly unnoticeable, because at 20fps, that 1000 is more like 1500.

And consider, most viewers of live streams are using cellphones, and up to 60% of all viewers are being sent 144p by YouTube.  They really mess with the sizes!  You might have set 720p, but most viewers are seeing less than half that.

Bottom line: If you want to keep that camera streaming within what the provider said, Select 360p, lower the frame rate to 20, increase P frames to 63, set bitrate at 400, and set quality to 30.   Then let me take a look. 

We had a train station customer who had to run at 150 for a while.  It looked fine. No viewers complained about it.




Offline CNYWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 11:18:57 AM »

We've also studied the use of live streaming by weather people, thus my interest in this group. 
We're actively planning future cameras around the needs of weather people, with exotic features so good that I'll get into trouble if I reveal them before we finish.



Keep up posted StarDot Dan!!

I think this would be great. I love my Hikvision cameras but I think where things are going, these cameras
have to be able to stream on their own.

I did try Blue Iris this morning and had mine up on YouTube for a bit to test. It was ok
but you're going from the camera, to the PC, to YouTube, so you're using CPU cycles
and things just end up slowing down to a crawl. Looking forward to simplifying all this.
Tony


Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 01:33:45 PM »
For what ever reason these Hikvisions are using a small amount of bandwidth 15-30 kbps with H.264+ turned on (Hik's version of H.265) 

Can you give me the link to this camera's view?  I'd like to see the results and try to figure out what's up. I noticed the 250+ p frames in your stats.  That's 8 seconds without a key frame.  Youtube recommends 2 to 4 seconds. However, they recommend a lot of things, which many streams ignore.  Like standard 16:9 sizes and minimum frame rates.

But at 8+ seconds without a key frame, you can save a lot of bandwidth.  A key frame for 720p is typically hundreds of KB.  A P frame is typically about 20Kb.  So after viewing your stream, I might increase the distance between key frames, in the next camera. 

About our next camera:  I can't mention the features I'd like to, but usually to do them you need a computer in the middle, or a streaming service provider who has advanced features.  Often weather people have to have a separate live stream, and short clips they created, viewable from another youtube link.  Our new camera will make that unnecessary. You can merge all the media you have, and schedule it with the live stream.

It will also do multi-media "data scraping" on the internet, making the results available in the live stream.  It should be pretty easy for someone familiar with scripting, to modify one of our sample data scraping scripts to do something exotic or obscure.  Like, get today's German lotto results and scroll them across the overlay.  Or display tornado watch warnings by county.


















Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2017, 02:17:47 PM »
For what ever reason these Hikvisions are using a small amount of bandwidth 15-30 kbps with H.264+ turned on (Hik's version of H.265) 

Can you give me the link to this camera's view?  I'd like to see the results and try to figure out what's up. I noticed the 250+ p frames in your stats.  That's 8 seconds without a key frame.  Youtube recommends 2 to 4 seconds. However, they recommend a lot of things, which many streams ignore.  Like standard 16:9 sizes and minimum frame rates.

But at 8+ seconds without a key frame, you can save a lot of bandwidth.  A key frame for 720p is typically hundreds of KB.  A P frame is typically about 20Kb.  So after viewing your stream, I might increase the distance between key frames, in the next camera. 

About our next camera:  I can't mention the features I'd like to, but usually to do them you need a computer in the middle, or a streaming service provider who has advanced features.  Often weather people have to have a separate live stream, and short clips they created, viewable from another youtube link.  Our new camera will make that unnecessary. You can merge all the media you have, and schedule it with the live stream.

It will also do multi-media "data scraping" on the internet, making the results available in the live stream.  It should be pretty easy for someone familiar with scripting, to modify one of our sample data scraping scripts to do something exotic or obscure.  Like, get today's German lotto results and scroll them across the overlay.  Or display tornado watch warnings by county.

Dan links are posted above in previous post but here they are again. Because I'm limited on bandwidth now I went to ON-Demand so links will buffer up to 90 seconds before solid connection. After that doesn't matter how many connections and you can stream as long as desired. I take that back the free non embedded stream pauses after a few minutes.

As far as the key frames go they are very high using the Hikvision H.264+ so that's the key to bandwidth reduction.
What else is different it goes into variable rate because key frames jump around. (150-250) and inbetween.
 
I'm not sure Youtube supports this 100% because I tried Blue Iris, FFMPEG but stability was an issue for both. I could get occasional 30 minutes before crash.

 


« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:42:40 PM by ValentineWeather »
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

Offline StarDot_Dan

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2017, 04:09:12 PM »
I can't explain the stats you got, except to say, the first stats are kB (bytes), not k bits.  So multiply by 8. 

Still, that makes your Hikvision camera out to be running at 172Kb.  The scene I viewed had mostly blue sky, and nearly no motion. We could do that scene at 800Kb, but at 172Kb it would look very blocks. 

With their key frames 4x further apart than ours, I guess 200Kb isn't impossible. 

But I still wanted to measure the bitrate directly, so  I viewed the stream with task manager up, and nothing else using internet on my computer.  I calculated it's actually a 722Kb stream.

I can't explain the difference. Maybe the stats you had didn't average the last 9 seconds.  Task manager only averages the last 1/3 second in it's stats.

Here's how I calculate that bitrate (see picture).  A better way would be to receive the RTSP stream directly into a computer with no other internet activity, and make sure to keep in mind, whatever stat you look at has to be averaged over at least 9 seconds.


Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2017, 04:45:51 PM »
Thanks for the information.
Image looks pretty good considering bandwidth being used, here is looking at BI the yellow highlighted are with the Plus compression cameras set at medium quality and 25 FPS.
 
Blue Iris shows both bouncing around between 10-18 kB/s  vs the other cameras exception west cam is looking into blue sky also so not using as much.
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Offline Clozzzer

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2017, 10:06:52 PM »
I just received my Stardot Camera....  A bit disappointed that it does have an auto iris.  The image goes from overly bright to perfect to to dark as the clouds move past.  Auto iris would help with this alot.  I was looking to purchased 10 of these but  my issue is they will all be used outdoors in enclosures, and I cant have performance like this.  Ill call Stardot Monday, but expecting not much to change..... 

Here is link to my live youtube.  Let me know what you think!

https://youtu.be/D7s_DaIG1zc[url]

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: StarDot NetCamLIVE
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2017, 10:16:42 PM »
Are using the exposure grid? I thought it was auto. Because you have almost all sky you should experiment with adding most exposure dots on land and removing most from sky and see what it does.
Randy, the Aviator is my father in 1963 with his Indian bike

 

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