Author Topic: Swinging Wind Directions  (Read 8560 times)

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Offline LIWeather

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Swinging Wind Directions
« on: February 12, 2009, 01:23:29 PM »
Is it normal to see several "roses" when wind is blowing? Im seeing the wind swing from WSW to NNW than around to the S. The winds are quite gusty up in the NE today (2/12) so I would guess this is normal. I didnt think it would swing as much.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 01:56:52 PM »
Is the wind vane level?
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Offline d_l

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 02:23:14 PM »
How much higher is the anemometer than any nearby obstructions, e.g. two-story houses, trees especially evergreens, etc.?  Winds hitting obstructions can create vortices that might cause direction reversals.

Then again, are your swinging wind directions out of line with those of nearby PWS readings?
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 02:54:09 PM »
I guess I never really understood how obstructions effect wind flow. I didnt think it would produce swings but definitely lower the wind speed.

The anemometer is not very high. It is obstructed by the house to the northeast. Looking at other stations, there seems to be little swing but not as much as mine. I guess the house could be foiling results more than I originally thought. I am planning to move it on the chimney this week so hopefully this will relieve the inconsistent measurements.

As for it being level, I believe it is perfectly level. How do you guys insure your measurements are level? I found that uneven sides and edges of the anemometer do not give you much support for the level.

Offline d_l

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 03:23:39 PM »
Check out the third picture down: http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/obst.htm and then imagine an anemometer in one of those vortices. Then if the wind direction happens to shift back and forth clockwise and then counterclockwise about 90 degrees in the example so that the anemometer first isn't shadowed by the obstacle and then is, you can see how the vortices might start and stop around the anemometer and spin the wind direction around the compass .

I've thought about this a lot because I think it sometimes happens with my wind vane. I need to get my above the roof anemometer installed as soon as the weather co-operates.  :-)
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Offline johnd

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 03:31:05 PM »
In inland semi-urban environments and even in rural ones if there are many trees/large bushes etc around the wind can be surprisingly variable and gusty, especially if the anemometer is not well-exposed. I've got a live site that plots mean wind direction every 6 minutes (IIRC) on a wind rose that you can see at:

http://www.elyweather.co.uk/wdl/

(The wind rose is the bottom-left graphic). This is a relatively well-exposed anemometer and still there are frequent and sometime large shifts in direction. The wind rose gives you some idea of the overall variability in each 24-hour period. Certainly get the anemometer as high and well-exposed as you can, but you'll still see significant variability in speed and direction.

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Offline mackbig

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 03:44:47 PM »
I am sure they know what they are talking about since they are the Danish Wind Industry Association.

But, the video they show is not very convincing, of one going and the other not.....  Those big wind mills require a motor to get them going.  I just drove by one of the largest wind projects in Canada last weekend.  it is up north, near lake huron, the area gets a pretty good breeze off the lake, which is why they located there, that an cheap farmland that they can lease a plunk off the owner to house the mill.

There was a 30 K breeze, 40 of them were zooming along, but about 7 were stopped.  I assume either from maintenance or forwhatever reason the motor had not given the blades a kick start.

I am sure they are correct that this case might have been a vortex...  just from driving past wind farms there are always at least one that are running...

Andrew


Check out the third picture down: http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/obst.htm and then imagine an anemometer in one of those vortices.

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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 03:52:26 PM »
Check out the third picture down: http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/obst.htm and then imagine an anemometer in one of those vortices.

Thanks for the link. That gives me a far better understanding as to what is taking place. Pretty amazing IMO. This thing definitely needs to get up on the roof. In the front of our house, you can see wind blowing like mad but in the rear yard where the anemometer is, it's not as windy. Its definitely the houses. Hopefully the elevation will give me the readings I'm looking to see. Thanks!!!

Offline casa manana

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 07:54:56 PM »
I've been experienceing the effects of vortices since I set up my anemometer just above tree-tops in my back-yard.  In my case it's pretty easy to watch the vortices being shed of the roof of the house and propagate through the tree-tops , and the anemometer dutifully detects every swing.  I've been tempted to put another 20 feet of extension on the pole, but my wife warns me of the neighbors' complaints (it's a very non-geek neighborhood unfortunately).  I've been trying to cook up a scheme where I can raise it about an inch a day, so no-one actually notices.  ;-)


Offline WeatherBeacon

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2009, 10:59:54 PM »

Goody! This is my field. :-)

To get an idea of how vortices and eddies form around a building, watch how the snow swirls around a building when there's a breeze or wind. On the leeward side of the building you will sometimes see the "falling" snow rise. On the leeward side of a slanted roof, there is also a counter-rotating vortex, so a westward wind might be measured as eastward at certain locations near the roof, for example. The air motion is further complicated by what are called "shed vortices." These are vortices that form and shed (migrate away from the obstruction), and then a new vortex develops and sheds, etc. This causes not only 3 dimensional motion, but unsteady flow... flow that changes with time...very complicated.

As another, simpler example, take a look at how snow drifts and gullies form odd shapes at different spots around a building. It's because the building causes disturbances in the flow field (motion). This is made even more complicated by other nearby obstructions like trees, bushes, neighboring structures, etc.

So yeah, the best location for wind instruments is atop a pole far from any obstructions. Placing wind instruments on a pole atop a building (as I do with mine) will produce pretty unreliable wind readings. You can even get unreliable readings if the wind instruments are atop a pole but there is an obstruction (even trees) on the leeward side (downstream) of the pole. In this case the obstruction (or trees) affect the air flow upstream.

Here's a fairly simplistic animation of shedding vortices on Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_shedding

It's simplistic because it shows only two dimensional flow around a cylinder. Real life is three dimensional and houses aren't round :roll:. They have have complex, irregular shapes and corners and overhangs and soffits, etc., all of which produce odd eddies. Nevertheless, the animation shows how the air flow is unsteady and how vortices shed.

Regards,

Kevin...
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 12:07:11 PM »
Just to summarize all of this, in a fairly perfect world, it is not normal to see swinging wind direction roses...

Offline johnd

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 12:32:35 PM »
I'm not sure that's a complete summary of what's been said. I would suggest:

In a very well exposed location with no nearby obstacles at all (or eg at sea) then wind direction would be fairly consistent, minute by minute.

But in most real-world locations, ie urban or semi-urban, or even rural and open but with significant obstructions (trees etc) in the general vicinity then it's expected that you'll record significant variability in wind direction, typically to the extent of ±20-30°. But the extent will depend on the type of weather and you wouldn't very often see frequent large (>90°) swings in direction.
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 03:04:41 PM »
Great, thanks. I am trying to determine how much of a factor obstructions are. I am still going to try and get my anemometer on the roof but I will not be able to overcome the tree's. I figure the tree's will create less of an obstruction compared to the solid object of a house.

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 05:13:50 PM »
I was reading an article last week and of course I can't find it now.  There is a wind term for a type of wind that changes direction by 90deg.  I saw it occur almost all day here; b/w N-W, then W-S. 

Offline Bushman

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 05:31:55 PM »
"Wind shift" is anything over 45 degrees with quick change. Or maybe http://ggweather.com/winds.html
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Offline WeatherBeacon

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 09:07:24 PM »


Great, thanks. I am trying to determine how much of a factor obstructions are. I am still going to try and get my anemometer on the roof but I will not be able to overcome the tree's. I figure the tree's will create less of an obstruction compared to the solid object of a house.

Simply put, any kind of an obstruction affects wind within a vicinity of the obstruction. The larger the object, the larger the region of its influence on wind. Unfortunately, trees have just as much an effect on wind as man-made structures if not more. I suspect that most of us here have problems with wind readings due to trees and structures.

Yesterday was windy here. At one time I checked my wind rose, which I have set to display the wind speed and direction over the previous 2 hours. Most of the readings showed strong winds varying from the SW to the NW with several readings from the SSW and NNW. What really surprised me was two strong gusts...one from the SE and one from the NE. They were very conspicuous and untypical, but there they were nevertheless. :cool: You can see what I mean if you check out the Graphs page on my web site.

Kevin...
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2009, 12:28:53 PM »
This past week, I finally moved the anemometer to the chimney. She now sails about 5-7' over the roof line. The wind speeds and directions have been a lot more accurate.

What I'm noticing today (Sat- winds around 5mph) is that the wind vane is swinging around. The rose buds on the console are all over (NW, NNW, NNE, NE and WSW). Is this typical with low wind speeds? I'm not very concerned but this is now new to me so I'm trying to understand "the wind."



« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 01:07:42 PM by LIWeather »

Offline WeatherBeacon

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2009, 02:43:38 PM »

I don't know when you'll be logged on again, LI, but take a look at my wind rose here:

   http://www.wxbeacon.com/vws/graphs.php

It varies from the SSE to the NW.

(I would copy the image and upload it to my web host and provide a hotlink to it, but I tire filling my web host folders with clutter.)
Mae govannen!
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2009, 04:42:14 PM »
I know with my original set up, I was plagued by obstructions so my wind speeds and directions were not accurate. I attributed the wind direction issues to the swirling effect of the wind traveling around objects (as posted here, thanks!) Now that I am above any obstructions, I was trying to figure out what was causing the wind rose to be so spread out. I presume your anemometer is elevated and away from obstructions?

I noticed on your rose, you were spread out too, but you had winds over 5 mph. My winds never went above 5 mph so I thought the light breezes were strong enough to flutter the wind vane but not strong enough to log a consistent wind. I looked at Wunderground after I posted and noticed that within the general area, everybody was showing different wind speeds so my theory may have some substance to it. I'm just trying to figure out what causes the swinging winds.

Offline Scalphunter

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2009, 05:48:45 PM »
To see how vortices  are  just  take a IFR fligth into Ketchikan International. It will make you a beliver of  vortices at their worst.


John

Offline WeatherBeacon

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 05:59:04 PM »
I don't know how light a wind speed you're referring to, but understand that in a very intermittent light breeze (a brief breeze with spans of no breeze at all), a short-lived light breeze will move the anemometer, and the anemometer's momentum will keep it moving a bit. (Remember that the anemometer is designed to have very little drag in the shaft). So a brief light breeze coupled with the anemometer's momentum might swing the anemometer a bit too far. Now suppose your station takes a sample at that moment. Then a few seconds later another brief light breeze coupled with the anemometer's momentum swings the anemometer too far the other way, and suppose the station takes a sample then. I've seen my anemometer wing erratically in such light breezes. I think that's normal.

Furthermore, in higher winds, there definitely are eddies and vortices around nearby objects that affect the readings. That's true above the roof because you're talking about very complex 3-dimensional unsteady flow around or near a surface. Fluid flow near surfaces is very complicated. I believe what you're seeing is normal, especially for an anemometer mounted above a building. (See one of my posts on page 1 of this thread.)

Regards,

Kevin...
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Offline LIWeather

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2009, 06:13:48 PM »
Kevin, that is what I was thinking and I basically wanted to confirm my theory. I figured that's what was happening and wanted to verify it being normal. I wanted to make sure I wasn't having "obstruction" like issues in the new location.

Thanks for helping support my theory.

Offline WeatherBeacon

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Re: Swinging Wind Directions
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2009, 06:17:41 PM »
Kevin, that is what I was thinking and I basically wanted to confirm my theory. I figured that's what was happening and wanted to verify it being normal. I wanted to make sure I wasn't having "obstruction" like issues in the new location.

Thanks for helping support my theory.

My pleasure. :grin:
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