Author Topic: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.  (Read 7100 times)

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Offline capeweather

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Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« on: April 29, 2012, 09:11:30 PM »
I just had to replace my Boltek antenna from it being defective. It was in my attic for several years and I noticed a crack which was causing noise 24/7. Anyway, a new one has been installed in a different location, outdoors, on top of my push up pole in a PVC enclosure. The approximate height is 36 feet and there is very little sway since guy wires secure the pole. I used a 100' cat6 shielded cable to feed into the house, part of which goes underground through schedule 40 conduit. Once in the house I reattached it to the existing 50 foot cable using a standard coupler which was purchased at CompUsa. Total cable length 150 feet. The existing cable was a cat 5 so I basically married a cat 6 and 5 together. I didn't think this would be any problem so I went with it.

During the day, the noise count will reach as high as 3800/min sporadically with the sound settings set at 10ms. This is roughly a 60hz cycle that it is picking up. The noise starts at approximately 10pm and cycles on and off throughout the day until about 4pm with no real pattern. Totally random. The squelch has to be increased to 11 or 12 just to eliminate the noise but if I left it that high my antenna would be useless. The noise sensitivity does not seem to have any effect when set for high or very high.

About a week ago, I started troubleshooting potential problems in my own home. I run two servers, one for the weather and the other for lightning. Both have 1500 UPS's for battery backup. After turning everything off in my own home I then decided to kill the main breaker to the house during the noise event. The problem disappeared while it was running on ups power only. I then tripped all the breakers except the breaker to the servers. Power was reapplied to the main and the noise event occurred again. I did hear a small amount of buzzing in the breaker feeding the servers which was noticeable during the event. I replaced the breaker and the noise did improve a little bit.

I then tried to distribute the load a little bit by applying power to different outlets but no difference has been noticed at this time. I've also tried swapping ups's and this has not changed anything.

So am I looking at this in the wrong direction or do I need to consider other sources? I never had this problem when my Boltek was in my attic. Oh, I forgot to mention, the PC was replaced also. Ideas? Suggestions?

I have been graphing the noise for troubleshooting and it can be viewed here if anybody is interested. Image updated every 2 minutes.

http://www.capeweather.com/florida-lightning.html

Thanks.......
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 09:13:09 PM by capeweather »

Chris
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Offline DanS

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 09:31:05 PM »
Shielding on the Cat6 and if so grounded?

You mentioned the PC was replaced also. Was this around the same time as the noise started? Noisy power supply possibly or ground issue with the new PC?

The interesting twist is the daytime only part. :-k

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 09:35:03 PM »
Interesting.

From part of your troubleshooting steps, I would next think about noise being generated by the UPSs charging circuits.

That's worth exploring, and easy enough to do - just unplug each of the UPS units (from the wall) during the noise event.

But I can't get that to fit your "during the day only" symptom.  Hmmm.  Do you have anything like electronic ballasts for light fixtures that are only used during the day?  I know that's a strange question...  Like a windowless room with lights that are only used during the day?  (bathroom...)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 09:38:39 PM by dalecoy »

Offline Curly

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 07:07:26 AM »
I just had to replace my Boltek antenna from it being defective. It was in my attic for several years and I noticed a crack which was causing noise 24/7. Anyway, a new one has been installed in a different location, outdoors, on top of my push up pole in a PVC enclosure. The approximate height is 36 feet ...

There's quite a difference between the locations.
With the antenna located outdoors and higher, you are most likely picking up more RFI from a greater distance.

Is the push up pole metal?
I believe it's recommended for the antenna to be at least 3 feet away of metal objects as it will cause undesired behavior.
Quote
The antenna is a small black box about 3" x 2" x 1.5" with mounting flanges on the top and bottom which can accept nylon screws or nylon cable ties. The antenna may be mounted to any non-metallic support.

Offline gwwilk

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 09:18:26 AM »
I would seriously consider moving the antenna back to your attic.  My antenna has been located in my attic for 10 years.  Yes, I did have to replace it three years ago when it failed, but my mount is non-metallic and it's away from the elements while being located only about 10 ft. from the computer that hosts it.  Long ethernet cable runs to the antenna can provide much more opportunity for the introduction of noise.  Moreover, my then 9 yr. old Boltek itself failed last year and had to be replaced after I discovered that replacing the antenna again didn't repair the detection system.  Electronics have a finite service life even when they contain no moving parts.  I think the antenna is designed to function in a very warm environment.  Just my 2¢ worth.  YMMV.
Regards, Jerry Wilkins
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Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 11:19:26 AM »
Thanks guys,

Yes, the new pc was installed with the replacement antenna and it sits approximately 2.5 feet above the top of the pole to avoid metal. The cat6 I believe is grounded back at the pc but I can provide more grounding if needed. 

RFI could definitely be an issue as it is well above the houses now and has a clear shot across the city.

This morning has been quite active with noise and I continued to troubleshoot the breaker that is feeding the pc's. During every event when there is a noise increase, I have tripped the 15A breaker leaving the main alone. Each time the breaker is tripped and the pc runs on ups, all the noises disappear and the graph becomes clean again. When i trip the breaker back, noise continues. This is a little different then my original description but today seems to be pretty consistent. I also tested this with all the other breakers off except the one feeding the pc's. The main was left on during this test.

I'm beginning to suspect dirty power. Florida has a lot of AC units and pool pumps that are active more during the day. I've also noticed that during hot days it seems to be a lot more active. I have an o'scope and may take a look at the sine wave and any possible ripple. Thoughts?








Chris
Cape Coral, Florida
Website: http://www.capeweather.com
Website: http://www.fortmyersweather.net

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 11:51:14 AM »
To totally rule out the UPS charging circuits as a cause, you could try running without the UPSs (and turning off the UPSs).  I know that would be a pain, requiring reboots, etc. 

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 01:18:48 PM »
Turning off the UPS's did not change it. I plugged an AM radio into the circuit and the noise is evident. Tried a different circuit and it appears this noise is throughout my house. I then took the radio over to my neighbors house who is also on the same transformer and he has it too. No station can be tuned on AM and heard clearly so a dirty power issue looks to be the case at this moment. Contacted the power company and they will be out to take a look.

Chris
Cape Coral, Florida
Website: http://www.capeweather.com
Website: http://www.fortmyersweather.net

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 01:41:20 PM »
Turning off the UPS's did not change it. I plugged an AM radio into the circuit and the noise is evident. Tried a different circuit and it appears this noise is throughout my house. I then took the radio over to my neighbors house who is also on the same transformer and he has it too. No station can be tuned on AM and heard clearly so a dirty power issue looks to be the case at this moment. Contacted the power company and they will be out to take a look.

Good, solid, step-by-step diagnostics there. 

Perhaps the power company folks can explain the "daytime" part of this.

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 02:06:42 PM »
Thanks. Even with the antenna unplugged it was still generating 3800 n/m. Also, it seems the noise is more pronounced and active during windy and hot days. Today we are under a wind lake advisory and its a bit warm outside as well. I have one more house on the transformer that I'm going to check in about an hour. Hopefully I can catch it in time before it ends at 4-5pm today. Oh, probably explains why my microwave, washing machine and dishwasher have had issues in the past 3 months.

Chris
Cape Coral, Florida
Website: http://www.capeweather.com
Website: http://www.fortmyersweather.net

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 04:41:30 PM »
You might also try driving around the neighborhood with the car radio tuned to AM.  The noise is undoubtedly being radiated.

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 05:10:13 PM »
I will definitely try that, thanks. Unfortunately, it's going to have to wait until tomorrow. Whatver it is, is off now. Quiet as can be. I've been looking at power filters for emi/efi to see if I can run that off my outlet for testing but its pricey stuff if you want quality. Seems like power filters are used quite a bit on a/v units.

Chris
Cape Coral, Florida
Website: http://www.capeweather.com
Website: http://www.fortmyersweather.net

Offline ocala

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 05:11:51 PM »
Dirty power straight from the power company?
Can't say I have ever heard of that.
The blues had a baby and they named it Rock & Roll

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 05:32:35 PM »
Noise started up again so I jumped in the car and turned the radio on 540am. Noise was blaring through the speakers under the transformer. Drove down the street to each additional transformer and it was quiet as can be.

Chris
Cape Coral, Florida
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 06:38:32 PM »
Dirty power straight from the power company?
Can't say I have ever heard of that.

It's not terribly common, but it does happen.  Sometimes from arcing that isn't severe enough to trip or burn out anything.  And several other possible causes.  It is unusual to have this only at certain times of the day.

When we all listened to AM radios, there would be plenty of quick complaints to the power company. 

Ham radio operators using the "High Frequency" bands are also affected, so there must not be any very near capeweather.

Offline DanS

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 07:11:33 PM »
Maybe a connection has loosened or frayed at that transformer. Enough of a connection to keep things running but with an increasing daytime load begins arcing. :?:

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 09:05:13 PM »
Problem solved! Power company came out today and replaced the lightning suppressor on the transformer, checked / tightened the grounds and secondary side of the transformer, and put a new connector on the high side. No change! Asked my neighbor across the street to kill his main power and the noise stopped. Reapplied power to the main and the noise came back. Then we isolated the noise back to a single zone in the house by flipping each individual breaker. Located the breaker zone and finally traced it back to a motion light sensor on the outside of the house that was severely weathered.

There are no trees around the motion sensor light which explains why it never triggered at night, even with wind. But during the day, as my neighbor walked outside, which he frequently does, he was setting off the sensor and it would stay on for approximately 60 - 90 seconds. 

Clean graph and no more noise! Problem solved!!!

 8-) 8-)

Chris
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Offline DanS

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 09:16:00 PM »
You're lucky to have a cooperative neighbor to allow you to locate it. If he didn't care about it and ignored you then you would be stuck with the problem. Good troubleshooting effort on your part!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 09:19:09 PM by DanS »

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 09:36:03 PM »
Thanks Dan. You're right, he was very nice about it. The entire neighborhood has a pretty good relationship so it made it much easier. He's a retired power line engineer so his curiosity was just as high as mine.  :grin:

You're lucky to have a cooperative neighbor to allow you to locate it. If he didn't care about it and ignored you then you would be stuck with the problem. Good troubleshooting effort on your part!

Chris
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Offline ocala

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 10:05:40 PM »
Good detective work there Chris. =D>
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 09:34:37 AM »
Good diagnostics.

And the power company showing up and saying "there's an electrical problem somewhere in your house" will normally induce cooperation.

Offline capeweather

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 08:49:36 PM »
Thanks again. Clean graph all day so it appears to be official.

Chris
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Offline DanS

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Re: Noise during the day only. Night is quiet.
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 10:45:15 PM »
now for some lightning ....