Author Topic: Repeated signal dropouts  (Read 22303 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 12:42:16 PM »
Perhaps support, too, has been kept in the dark. Nevertheless, someone over at Davis must have put 2 and 2 together after all these years. If not, that's worse. It suggests no one at Davis is capable of or willing to recognize patterns in support calls and/or learn from their mistakes to prevent them from appearing in subsequent designs.

I can't speak to whether this is true or not at Davis, but I have worked in technology companies with known hardware flaws. I can tell you that we were not allowed to disclose that we knew the hardware was flawed. We just had to tell the customers to send it in for warranty replacement/repair. The support team and hardware team repeatedly informed management that this one component was a huge source of RMAs, but management steadfastly refused to change suppliers because the other suppliers cost a little bit more. For some unknown reason the cost of repeated warranty returns and repairs, as well as damage to the brand's reputation, did not seem to factor into management's cost-benefit calculations.

Those of us who have spent our careers in the IT field supporting end users (guilty), have heard such war stories. That's why I don't take seriously notions that Davis has no idea of what's happening, especially considering how long this product has been on the market and how many wireless units are out in the field.

In fact, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've caught Davis hiding another, unrelated issue with much lower stakes. It affected fewer users, but their first instinct was to deny repeatedly until they were backed into a corner, and then act like they always knew it, and it's no big deal. The only reason I got an admission of any sort was because I confronted the director of Technical Support with hard math and wouldn't back down. If I had been a less knowledgeable user who was quarantined in first tier support, you can bet my emails would have met the delete button (and did initially, hence my detective work).
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline ValentineWeather

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6364
    • Valentine Nebraska's Real-Time Weather
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2018, 01:02:54 PM »
I found a problem too. They denied also but eventually came out with console update that fixed issue. Funny thing they never admitted in update it fixed issue but it did. The issue was running Vue console and separate wireless anemometer, the large cup setting was wrong, wind speed reported would be low compared to VP2 console.

I came across it because I run both consoles using same anemometer. Others also chimed in confirming they were seeing same issue. So make sure you have latest Vue console update using the wireless anemometer.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 01:13:17 PM by ValentineWeather »
Randy

Offline zackdog

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 410
    • Winter Park Highlands Web cams
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2018, 06:34:09 PM »
This got me thinking, maybe it is something inherent in the VP2 console.  I know a lot of people that have VP2s don't use the WeatherLink software, but I always shut down my Cumulous and download to WeatherLink for my records.  I decided to look back at the data from when I upgraded from the WM II to the VP2.  The graphs are pretty interesting.  It appears that I had a reception problem from day one when the temperatures went down, and I never realized it because I never happened to be looking at the console when it occurred.  Here are two years of data graphs.  It is pretty obvious that the reception goes down during the cold months.

Can you guess when I switched to the Vue console? :lol:

Mark

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]













« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 06:45:30 PM by zackdog »
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." - Dylan

Vantage Pro2 Plus w/ 24 hr FARS and (2) VantageVues

VP2 uploading via Vue console to CWOP, WU, PWS, and Weathercloud.


Offline ValentineWeather

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6364
    • Valentine Nebraska's Real-Time Weather
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2018, 06:57:25 PM »
I think issue is real with so many here experiencing same dropout problem in very cold conditions, now getting Davis to admit near impossible because many users never experience low enough temperatures. Plus I couldn't get them to admit issue with anemometer when it was so easily replicated.

Not all VP2's have issues either, if they do it's not as noticable. 
Good graph also, shows issues with cold weather for sure and its very clear when you switched to the Vue console.
Randy

Offline W3DRM

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Emmett Weather
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2018, 09:14:52 PM »
Wow, that is pretty solid evidence that something major changed in mid-February of 2015! Now, comes the question is WeatherLink the only software that captures this info? It's been so long since I did anything with WL or VWS, I don't remember what data elements get captured from the data logger. It would be really nice to be able to see these kinds of charts with WD or some other weather software.
Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
Davis Wireless VP2, WD 10.37s150,
StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
--- Logitech HD Pro C920 webcam (off-line)
--- RIPE Atlas Probe - 32849

Offline LABob

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 343
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2018, 09:21:57 PM »
Is the solder connection to the external antenna different on the Vue console? Just wondering if there's a design difference.

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2018, 08:12:42 AM »
It would be really nice to be able to see these kinds of charts with WD or some other weather software.

Here's a screenshot of the wind dropouts in WeatherCat (with temperature included for reference).

In the first image you'll notice dropouts (which are indicated by the wind speed suddenly  going to 0) came about every 5 hours or so when it was below 10F. You'll notice on the 2nd image that as the temp goes above 10F, the dropouts disappear. I haven't had a dropout since the temp has stayed above 10 early yesterday morning.

Jan 5-6:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]


Jan 7-8:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2018, 08:28:13 AM »
...many users never experience low enough temperatures...

Not all VP2's have issues either, if they do it's not as noticable. 

I agree, Randy. Most wireless users won't get or stay below 10F for long. If you aren't checking the console (or your weather software or website) often, you might not notice, especially if the cold snap is brief. Most of my wind dropouts last about 6-10 minutes. Of course, it does get worse as it gets colder in my experience. The dropouts last longer and sometimes the console won't resync without help.

Regardless, for those of us who depend on the proper functioning of our stations, it's completely unacceptable for the thing to start quitting on us at 10F (-15C) or colder.
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline miraculon

  • Sunrise Side Weather
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • KE8DAF
    • Sunrise Side Weather in Rogers City MI USA
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2018, 08:40:00 AM »
Is the solder connection to the external antenna different on the Vue console? Just wondering if there's a design difference.

I have a VUE, two VP2 consoles, an Envoy8x and a regular Envoy adjacent to each other. The antennas (and the mounting) appear to be identical. If I remember correctly from when I had both a VUE and a VP2 apart, the antenna coax and connection to the PCB seemed to be the same. (I didn't have these apart side-by-side or even at the same time, and I am relying on my sometimes sketchy memory :?)

Greg H.


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline miraculon

  • Sunrise Side Weather
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • KE8DAF
    • Sunrise Side Weather in Rogers City MI USA
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2018, 08:50:45 AM »
Thanks zackdog and Old Tele man for your first hand accounts.

If the Vue console eliminates my dropouts as well, that doesn't say anything good about Davis. Upon learning years ago that the wireless kit experiences signal lock problems in cold weather, Davis could have done one or more of the following:

1) recommended buyers purchase the wired version and change the official specifications and promotional text to reflect an operational range above 10F (-15C)
2) recommended buyers swap a VP2 console for a Vue console if they anticipate being in 10F or colder weather 
3) switched out the OEM Duracell with a SureFire battery (or at least recommend them during support calls)
4) fixed the console and/or transmitters so dropouts no longer occur within the original specifications

Instead, wireless users call support and are told to send in their VP2 consoles for "repair", the pretext being there MUST be something wrong with the console (couldn't be a design error). The unit Davis returns, however, is no more able to hold onto a signal in -15C or colder weather than before. I don't recall anyone ever being offered a refund.

Perhaps support, too, has been kept in the dark. Nevertheless, someone over at Davis must have put 2 and 2 together after all these years. If not, that's worse. It suggests no one at Davis is capable of or willing to recognize patterns in support calls and/or learn from their mistakes to prevent them from appearing in subsequent designs.

Having worked on automotive OEM products (now retired), we had to comply with fairly strict EMC and temperature requirements. These were never tested at the same time for any of our customers, which included well-known car companies, including Japanese and Korean. At least for automotive, I never heard of a combination RF and temperature-controlled test facility. I would be interested to know if such a test facility exists.

Testing RF performance at temperature would have to be field tested at the whim of Mother Nature. I know that there are some OATS (open area test site) that could conceivably be used for this if the weather conditions are right. Being California-based, this might be a bit difficult logistically for Davis.

Greg H.


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2018, 09:16:51 AM »
Testing RF performance at temperature would have to be field tested at the whim of Mother Nature. I know that there are some OATS (open area test site) that could conceivably be used for this if the weather conditions are right. Being California-based, this might be a bit difficult logistically for Davis.

That would beg the question "what was the origin of the current environmental specifications?" Their rear end?

The bottom line is Davis sold these devices with the assurance they would do well in weather down to -40F. They left it to their users to discover that the true lower limit is actually 50 degrees warmer! And you want us to absolve them because they didn't/couldn't field test their units before selling them to people in cold climates?

You do realize there are commercial freezers that can go down to -40F and beyond, right? I have a platinum RTD device made for deep freeze applications that can read down to -199F.
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline miraculon

  • Sunrise Side Weather
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • KE8DAF
    • Sunrise Side Weather in Rogers City MI USA
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2018, 10:35:15 AM »
Quote
You do realize there are commercial freezers that can go down to -40F and beyond, right?

We had a temperature chamber at work when we tested our product. It could test both hot and cold at any arbitrary temperature (within the chamber's capability) with the DUT inside. The customer's spec called out -40°C, but we would frequently take it much colder in order to test to failure.

My point was that there are RF test facilities, there are temperature test facilities, but are there any that can do both at the same time, i.e. test RF at cold temperatures? I am not trying to "absolve" anyone, just pointing out that this is a difficult thing to test.

Greg H.



Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline ValentineWeather

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6364
    • Valentine Nebraska's Real-Time Weather
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2018, 10:44:05 AM »
Antarctic research facilities would be ideal for frequency hopping spread spectrum transmitter and receiver testing on the warmer days, for Davis inst. above -40C.  :-)
Randy

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2018, 10:48:35 AM »
Quote
You do realize there are commercial freezers that can go down to -40F and beyond, right?

We had a temperature chamber at work when we tested our product. It could test both hot and cold at any arbitrary temperature (within the chamber's capability) with the DUT inside. The customer's spec called out -40°C, but we would frequently take it much colder in order to test to failure.

My point was that there are RF test facilities, there are temperature test facilities, but are there any that can do both at the same time, i.e. test RF at cold temperatures? I am not trying to "absolve" anyone, just pointing out that this is a difficult thing to test.

Greg H.

Umm, unless I'm missing something, why not just put the station (or SIM) inside the temperature chamber and then put the console some distance away in room temperature? Problem solved. Yes, it may not conform to some off-the-shelf test spec, but it would at least give them an idea of what users would experience. It would be a field test, of sorts.
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline miraculon

  • Sunrise Side Weather
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • KE8DAF
    • Sunrise Side Weather in Rogers City MI USA
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2018, 10:49:17 AM »
The temperature chamber we had was stainless steel lined. (as are all that I am familiar with)

Since this is a Faraday cage basically, it's a little difficult for any signal to get out...

Greg H.


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline zackdog

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 410
    • Winter Park Highlands Web cams
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2018, 10:50:39 AM »
If it is an RF problem,  why is the Vue console not affected :?:

Mark

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." - Dylan

Vantage Pro2 Plus w/ 24 hr FARS and (2) VantageVues

VP2 uploading via Vue console to CWOP, WU, PWS, and Weathercloud.


Offline ValentineWeather

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6364
    • Valentine Nebraska's Real-Time Weather
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2018, 11:15:35 AM »
Good point what I read about FHSS to work correctly both transmitter and receiver need to stay in sync or packet loss increases so lets say the VP2 console is doing more work than the Vue so its not using as much resource collecting packets because of other duties but why only when temperatures are low? 
Randy

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2018, 11:27:58 AM »
The temperature chamber we had was stainless steel lined. (as are all that I am familiar with)

Since this is a Faraday cage basically, it's a little difficult for any signal to get out...

Greg H.

I would think with your professional background, you would appreciate that unless you are privy to industry, company and product-specific information about various capabilities, design decisions and test facilities, some of which would be protected almost certainly by a non-disclosure agreement, playing arm chair engineer is pointless.

If Davis knew they couldn't test their claim (of wireless capability to -40F) and continued making it when it became clear over time it wasn't true, then shame on them. That's the worst possible scenario.



Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
If it is an RF problem,  why is the Vue console not affected :?:

There might be more than one factor in play here. Could be the SIM transmitter design is a bit finicky but compensated for by an improved or better "mated" receiver in the Vue. Could be, as Randy suggested, that the Vue isn't multitasking as much. Who knows. I doubt we'll ever know.
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline Old Tele man

  • Singing in the rain...
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2018, 12:55:50 PM »
Quote
You do realize there are commercial freezers that can go down to -40F and beyond, right?

We had a temperature chamber at work when we tested our product. It could test both hot and cold at any arbitrary temperature (within the chamber's capability) with the DUT inside. The customer's spec called out -40°C, but we would frequently take it much colder in order to test to failure.

My point was that there are RF test facilities, there are temperature test facilities, but are there any that can do both at the same time, i.e. test RF at cold temperatures? I am not trying to "absolve" anyone, just pointing out that this is a difficult thing to test.

Greg H.
ALL of the automotive manufacturers have/use 'combined' Climatic-RF Anechoic chambers to test/certify (for FCC compliance) their satellite-communication (and eaves-dropoping) GPS, XM-radio, and "On-Star"-like services (and slowly inching towards ultimate "BIG BROTHER" OBD-III).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:59:17 PM by Old Tele man »
• SYS: Davis VP2 Vue/WL-IP & Envoy8X/WL-USB;
• DBX2 & DBX1 Precision Digital Barographs
• CWOP: DW6988 - 2 miles NNE of Cortaro, AZ
• WU - KAZTUCSO202, Countryside

Offline zackdog

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 410
    • Winter Park Highlands Web cams
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2018, 01:43:11 PM »
I am beginning to wonder if Davis actually did anything to my console for the $80 when I sent it in.  Been looking back over my records since I read this thread and put together a spread sheet.  I will continue to monitor both consoles, at least until May.

Mark

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." - Dylan

Vantage Pro2 Plus w/ 24 hr FARS and (2) VantageVues

VP2 uploading via Vue console to CWOP, WU, PWS, and Weathercloud.


Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2018, 01:51:06 PM »
Davis probably gave it the old "once over". If pressed, I'm sure they could say the fee was for a diagnostic. Did they send an invoice with any explicit notes?

Looking at your spreadsheet I see dropouts on the VP2 console starting at +20F! 

Also it seems signal quality does degrade on the Vue console as temps go lower. What is the average Vue packet completion percentage in warmer periods? 98%? 99%?

My VP2 console seems to average 98% during >10F weather (for both transmitters).
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Offline SnowHiker

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2018, 01:54:56 PM »
... playing arm chair engineer is pointless.
Maybe so, yet I find the insights, and even speculations, of men like Greg and Tele man interesting.  I'm still interested in what the problem is even if there is nothing we can do about it. Even if there are controlled environmental facilities, it seems they'll still miss things that turn up in real world circumstances.

BTW, sometime ago I posted a graph of my reception with my original VP with temps approaching -40 when someone here basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about when I said it didn't seem to be much affected by temperature:
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

So I think my case does show a VP console can in fact operate down to -40, any quality control issues or such aside. I don't know how the fancy spread spectrum frequency hopping may change things, but I think it is a little funny that the VP2 was supposed to solve things like connection problems, but my old VP(1) seems to have less problems than many VP2s many years newer.  :-)

Offline openvista

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 481
    • marquetteweather.com
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2018, 03:56:18 PM »
Maybe so, yet I find the insights, and even speculations, of men like Greg and Tele man interesting. 

As do I. I get a little irritated when speculation turns into [paraphrasing]: "well, it might not be possible for Davis to run tests on their transmitters in cold weather". Combine that with an earlier statement of: "show me a better battery form factor" (in response to a discussion about possible low OEM battery output @ <10F). Greg appears to believe if we're going to point out problems, then somehow it's our responsibility to come up with a better solution or demonstrate reliable test procedures proven to work below 10F. That's not speculation; it's a subtle shifting of responsibility onto the consumer rather than the manufacturer (who alone possesses the resources to address the issue). Now, if there's a workaround, like the Vue console, I'm all ears. But let's keep clear on who's ultimately responsible for what and what is realistically possible for the end user.


...I think it is a little funny that the VP2 was supposed to solve things like connection problems, but my old VP(1) seems to have less problems than many VP2s many years newer.

This is spot on. Unfortunately, our society has fully embraced the religion of progress. The fundamental doctrine being if its newer, smaller and easier, it must be better. Above all, you are not allowed to pine for older, more reliable technology.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 04:07:06 PM by openvista »
Davis Vantage Pro2 AC FARS | https://marquetteweather.com | EW7933

Online johnd

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4827
    • www.weatherstations.co.uk
Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2018, 04:08:36 PM »
...I think it is a little funny that the VP2 was supposed to solve things like connection problems, but my old VP(1) seems to have less problems than many VP2s many years newer.

This is spot on. ..

I don't doubt the SnowHiker's observation for a second and it may be specially pertinent to very low temperatures. But overall I'd say that VP2 is incomparably better than VP1 in terms of wireless performance. VP1 (even in revised form) always had short range, substantial problems when asked to penetrate a wall, often refused to get to 100% in reception even under favourable circumstances, many units had short streak lengths whatever you did and there always seemed to be periodic brownouts and dropouts in reception. The only favourable thing I'd say about VP1 was that supercap faults were rare, probably because of the more mechanically robust component type used.
Prodata Weather Systems
Prodata's FAQ/support site for Davis stations
Includes many details on 6313 Weatherlink console.
UK Davis Premier Dealer - All Davis stations, accessories and spares
Cambridge UK

Sorry, but I don't usually have time to help with individual issues by email unless you are a Prodata customer. Please post your issue in the relevant forum section here & I will comment there if I have anything useful to add.