Topic: Which comes First?

[SLOweather]

The other reality check I'd include is economics and all-in costs (ie development/marketing/support etc) - all too often the only cost that people identify is the bill of materials, which will be only a small % of the total.

I was hoping you would chime in, John. Yes, indeed, I'll be including those things.

[ct]

For me, an important part of having a weather station is the ability to replace components if they fail, or replace one type of sensor with another.

Having owned a VP1 for 13 years, I now have a humidity sensor that reads 100% all the time.  I cannot replace it because that particular sensor is no longer available.  If I buy a VP2 I cannot use my VP1 console, envoy or 2 data loggers.  This seems quite a waste of some expensive hardware.

To avoid similar situations in the future, I built my own ISS, as a crude type of weekend project.  Now that I control the software running in the 'ISS', I can use any sensors I choose.  I use an XBee transmitter to communicate with an indoor unit where I then send data to a VP2 console.

Having control of the 'ISS' also allows me to implement features that I have long wished for in a weather station, such as monitoring FARS fan RPM and voltage, battery voltages, charge controller charging/current/temperature status.  I have 2 way communications with the 'ISS' and can remotely update the code, change frequency of updates, and more.

[johnd]

1) AFAIK, WeatherLink comes bundled with the Davis loggers. Additional licenses are $25 each. No, that doesn't include the required logger. Definitely not a giveaway.

You do realise that the $25 RRP pricing effectively implies a zero-profit item, which is certainly one definition of a giveaway? There will be 3 elements to the cost:

1. The cost of making and packing the item, which will be pretty small, but let's say a few $.
2. As soon as you create a new item with its own SKU then there are inventory costs associated with it plus ancillary costs eg shipping to dealers - maybe $10.
3. Then if you have a physical item that you're asking/expecting dealers to sell then there has to be a margin for them which will largely be the balance of the RRP.

In the big scheme of things this is just one small and relatively inconsequential item, but I can't see that there is any significant margin whatsoever for anyone in spare WL CD's. Why on earth Davis don't just acknowledge this and make the software free to download I can't imagine - it would be easier for everyone in the supply chain. Speaking as a dealer, I'm pretty sure we make a loss every time we sell a WL CD - the margin involved just doesn't cover the costs of processing the sale.

[torkelmj]

You do realise that the $25 RRP pricing effectively implies a zero-profit item, which is certainly one definition of a giveaway?

No, I don't. As a customer, my view is that any item I pay for cannot be considered a giveaway. But that's my view, which differs from yours. I can live with that, John.

My main point was that Davis could potentially benefit from creating an updated version of their PC/Mac software. The current version looks 1990-ish and doesn't do justice to their weather station hardware. Again, my view.

[dalecoy]

My main point was that Davis could potentially benefit from creating an updated version of their PC/Mac software.

How many more systems would Davis likely sell, compared to the current version of WeatherLink?

[CW2274]

My main point was that Davis could potentially benefit from creating an updated version of their PC/Mac software.

How many more systems would Davis likely sell, compared to the current version of WeatherLink?

Just to add from my perspective, I bought my VP2 for what goes out the door, not in. I know others think I'm crazy for that, but my reasoning remains unchanged, and would do it again.

[Mattk]

There appears to be a thinking that software should be changed for the sake of change? This thinking appears to be getting well entrenched into most technology but is it really needed? The indication of stable software is generally low version numbers and long periods between updates/fixes. All that many software vendors are doing these days is consistently releasing versions more to align with what some expect and typically for every release several extra bugs are introduced creating an never ending cycle which I suppose is good for the programmers.

Another reason for continuous releases is typically to increase the revenue stream under the disguise of continuous improvement. 

[weatherc]

Just to add from my perspective, I bought my VP2 for what goes out the door, not in. I know others think I'm crazy for that, but my reasoning remains unchanged, and would do it again.

Me too, but honestly, Davis could soon start to sell VP2 as "RETRO" as both the console and WL are like the 90's both in look/feel and functionality. Also the size of the datalogger are more like a joke, one can have 256 GB in a SD-card but Davis logger fits just some 2000 datas.

[CW2274]

There appears to be a thinking that software should be changed for the sake of change?

If ya ain't got the latest and greatest, you're nowhere. At least that's the way I think some certainly see it.
Maybe that's why I drive a 15 year old car.

[Bushman]

Not the same as electronics IMHO.  Apple made a fortune off the early adopters.  Davis needs to change - or die.

[SnowHiker]

If ya ain't got the latest and greatest, you're nowhere. At least that's the way I think some certainly see it.
Maybe that's why I drive a 15 year old car.

The good thing is that it can lead to some good deals. 

A got a spare VP, extra sensors and stuff real cheap to keep my VP running when everyone had to get the new improved VP2 and sold their almost new original VPs real cheap, and Davis had their half off sale on remote sensors.  Still going strong and cheap 14 years later while everyone is now dreaming about VP3s.

My trucks are closer to 30 years old.  Easy and cheap to work on and keep running.

Yes, I'm cheap.  Also tend to distrust "new and improved" things.  But mainly cheap.

Maybe I'll get some new VP2 equipment when the VP3 comes out. 

[CW2274]

Not the same as electronics IMHO.  Apple made a fortune off the early adopters.  Davis needs to change - or die.

Very true. If the competition puts Davis in it's rear view mirror, outdoor wise, I'll jump ship. Indoor, they're already behind, but I don't really care. For me personally, with my modded ISS, best in class sensor, and RW tipper, it'll fall apart before anyone catches up performance wise, including the Atlas Elite.

[SpartanWX]

1) AFAIK, WeatherLink comes bundled with the Davis loggers. Additional licenses are $25 each. No, that doesn't include the required logger. Definitely not a giveaway.

You do realise that the $25 RRP pricing effectively implies a zero-profit item, which is certainly one definition of a giveaway? There will be 3 elements to the cost:

1. The cost of making and packing the item, which will be pretty small, but let's say a few $.
2. As soon as you create a new item with its own SKU then there are inventory costs associated with it plus ancillary costs eg shipping to dealers - maybe $10.
3. Then if you have a physical item that you're asking/expecting dealers to sell then there has to be a margin for them which will largely be the balance of the RRP.

In the big scheme of things this is just one small and relatively inconsequential item, but I can't see that there is any significant margin whatsoever for anyone in spare WL CD's. Why on earth Davis don't just acknowledge this and make the software free to download I can't imagine - it would be easier for everyone in the supply chain. Speaking as a dealer, I'm pretty sure we make a loss every time we sell a WL CD - the margin involved just doesn't cover the costs of processing the sale.

People still buy software at a store?  On like a CD with a box?

[torkelmj]

How many more systems would Davis likely sell, compared to the current version of WeatherLink?

How would I know, Dale? How would you know?

Innovation includes taking some risks. Davis could surely afford giving WL a much-needed facelift.

[dalecoy]

How many more systems would Davis likely sell, compared to the current version of WeatherLink?

How would I know, Dale? How would you know?

Innovation includes taking some risks. Davis could surely afford giving WL a much-needed facelift.

I certainly don't know.  I don't even know how many systems Davis sells, and how many loggers of which kind.  But I am sure that Davis does evaluate that "how many more sales" question for each of the suggested improvements.

The fact that Davis has not, for many years, made any improvement in the website functionality of WeatherLink is a good indication that Davis does not think that the added expense (of doing the improvement) would sell enough additional loggers to pay for the development.

[Old Tele man]

Unfortunately, there are FEW companies who are "sales leaders" from the REAR of the pack.

[dalecoy]

So - does someone want to tackle "why should Davis improve the external display (website) appearance of the WeatherLink software? - and would the expense help Davis sell more weather systems?"

Actually, for a few months I have been considering a thread series somewhat along the lines of "So you want to design a weather station" or something similar. So often here at Wxforum, we get questions/comments/requests etc exactly along those lines.
................

I'm willing to tackle the project, if there is genuine interest in it. It's not a trivial post.

I'm interested and willing to participate.  But given a recent tiny attempt along those lines, I'm not sure........

[Mattk]

Lets face reality we have already been shafted due to the actions of some who forced Davis with the green logger stuff, you can't have it both ways people.

[WheatonRon]

There appears to be a thinking that software should be changed for the sake of change?

If ya ain't got the latest and greatest, you're nowhere. At least that's the way I think some certainly see it.
Maybe that's why I drive a 15 year old car.

I have you beat. I drive a 31 year old MB diesel with 90,000 original miles. I am the original owner. Back on thread topic. I want a console that doesn't lose connection to my computer whenever there is an electrical storm nearby (bluetooth sounds good) and 100% easily replacable parts which includes the suoercap that is currently a hassle to replace. And a rain gauge that is accurate--my job is to calibrate my two VP2s this Spring to get reasonably close to my Mr. CoCo gauge!

[Old Tele man]

There appears to be a thinking that software should be changed for the sake of change?

If ya ain't got the latest and greatest, you're nowhere. At least that's the way I think some certainly see it.
Maybe that's why I drive a 15 year old car.

I have you beat. I drive a 31 year old MB diesel with 90,000 original miles. I am the original owner. Back on thread topic. I want a console that doesn't lose connection to my computer whenever there is an electrical storm nearby (bluetooth sounds good) and 100% easily replacable parts which includes the suoercap that is currently a hassle to replace. And a rain gauge that is accurate--my job is to calibrate my two VP2s this Spring to get reasonably close to my Mr. CoCo gauge!

That's a simple fix that DAVIS™ could make: attach the supercap to a bare IC-carrier and "plug" it into an IC-socket that replaces the existing PCB eyelets into which the supercap is currently soldered.

[dalecoy]

100% easily replacable parts which includes the suoercap that is currently a hassle to replace.

That's a simple fix: attach the supercap to a bare IC-carrier and "plug" it into an IC-socket that replaces the existing PCB eyelets into which the supercap is currently soldered.

Another simple fix is to purchase the cabled VP2.

[WheatonRon]

There appears to be a thinking that software should be changed for the sake of change?

If ya ain't got the latest and greatest, you're nowhere. At least that's the way I think some certainly see it.
Maybe that's why I drive a 15 year old car.

I have you beat. I drive a 31 year old MB diesel with 90,000 original miles. I am the original owner. Back on thread topic. I want a console that doesn't lose connection to my computer whenever there is an electrical storm nearby (bluetooth sounds good) and 100% easily replacable parts which includes the suoercap that is currently a hassle to replace. And a rain gauge that is accurate--my job is to calibrate my two VP2s this Spring to get reasonably close to my Mr. CoCo gauge!

That's a simple fix: attach the supercap to a bare IC-carrier and "plug" it into an IC-socket that replaces the existing PCB eyelets into which the supercap is currently soldered.

I appreciate the suggestion, but there are a lot of folks out there that don't have that skill set. I believe what you are suggesting requires removing the existing supercap (cutting or unsoldering) and then installing your device by soldering it into the PC board. If done by Davis upfront, it would literally be plug and play vs. your suggestion of doing Davis design work that many folks can't do.

[Old Tele man]

Ooops! I was replying with what Davis™ should/could do, not what YOU should have to do. (I've amended my original post for clarification).

[SLOweather]

I'm interested and willing to participate.  But given a recent tiny attempt along those lines, I'm not sure........

Yeah, I should have figured out a better title/subject. What I envision is more HOW a weather station is/was designed, all of the decisions that are made in doing so, and all of the interactions and compromises that are made.

I was thinking of a "budgets" approach.

Who is the target market?

How much will they spend and what's included in the sales price? (profit/support/advertising/packaging/engineering amortization, etc)

How much can you make it for? (construction budget/outdoor sensors, indoor sensors/display)

How will it be powered? (Power budget)

Data budget? (how fast will the data be sent from the outdoors to the indoors) data budget impacts power budget...

Etc.

It's more of an analysis than a how to do it...

[dalecoy]

..... What I envision is more HOW a weather station is/was designed, all of the decisions that are made in doing so, and all of the interactions and compromises that are made.

.....

It's more of an analysis than a how to do it...

Yes, that's what I inferred that you were proposing.  I would hope that johnd will participate.

My concern is the "They should just do it and it will sell a bunch at a reasonable price" syndrome.