Topic: Dual Solar 06014RM overheating

[pcjunky]

Hi, I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm having similar problems with my single panel 5-in-1 sensor and wanted to run my problem by the weather nerds here.  I've posted on the Acurite forum, but I'm not really getting anywhere over there.

My reading 5 to > 15 degrees on clear sunny days between 10am and 2pm.  By late afternoon/early evening when I should be having my daily highs my temps ware within degrees of other stations in my area.  Since my temps are okay when it should be the hottest I think we can assume the fan is running.  I did take the 5-in-1 off my 10' EMT pipe mounting pole to verify the fan runs, but I did notice the fan can stick as reported by other users.  I also checked to see how much sun the panel needed to get the fan running by turning the sensor towards and away from the sun.  To me it looks like the fan will run if there is sun on the panel.  Any shade(my big head) or overcast and the fan didn't run.  I did notice a few silky spider webs when I had the sensor open, but none where near the fan.

I'm in Utah @ 4300' compared to your sea level.  So solar radiation is most intense during that time of day.  Some suggest that heated air radiating from the EMT pipe is being sucked into the sensor by the fan, but I believe the pipe would have to be hundreds of degrees to heat enough air to make a difference.  It just doesn't have enough mass like a hot drive way or a roof top.  Also the wind would have to be still or blowing one direction for the readings to be consistently hot during that period only.  Anyway I added a PVC pipe sleeve around the EMT to eliminate the EMT as a cause.

My theory is that a sensor/fan/radiant shielding combination designed to work @ sea level or 900' where Acurite is located can't possibly give the same results @ higher altitudes where solar radiation is more intense without a faster/bigger fan or other modifications.  I believe the side body of the 5-in-1 is getting overheated between 10am to 2pm when the sun is high in the sky to the East and South of the sensor.  When the sun gets more towards the front a smaller portion of the body is exposed to the radiation so temps cool down. Right now I'm not having problems when the sun hits the other side of the body, but I think in summer/fall when my temps get hotter I might have a problem there too.

So has anyone been able to prove the sensor body is overheating so that Acurite would do something about it?

Thanks for your input.

[nincehelser]

Hi, I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm having similar problems with my single panel 5-in-1 sensor and wanted to run my problem by the weather nerds here.  I've posted on the Acurite forum, but I'm not really getting anywhere over there.

I'm sorry no one is giving you the answer you want over there, but yet another thread "hijacking" makes it clear you have a "theory" you must have proved instead of looking for an actual solution.

If your fan is sticking, that's a problem.  You seem to want to go in a different direction, though.

Also, now that you claim the sun is "East and South" of the sensor during the middle of the day makes me think you still aren't pointing the unit true north as was pointed out to you at the start. You shouldn't just be "eyeballing" it based on what you think your east-west property line is doing.  Use a compass and do it right.

[DoctorKnow]

pcjunky,

Don't worry about hijacking, that is what we are here for is to figure out what to do with the product. I doubt the mast has anything to do with the problems. Are you certain the station is level? If it is leaning, the fan may not be able to run at capacity, which is very important. Even with mine oiled and fairly level, I am still seeing about 2 degrees high at times, but like you, when the sun is in the western sky, the fan seems to run best. That indicates to me that there may be a slight issue with the eastern panel, although it meets acurites specifications. When we had a real hot day two days ago, the sensor read perfectly... This is a very odd device to figure out.

I don't know what nicehelser expects you to do about the fan. Maybe he can give some advice, and not just say "do something about it". 

[nincehelser]

Proper advice has been given.  If it's a fan problem, send it in for warranty.

Why someone wants to have a new unit with a sticking fan is beyond me.

[DoctorKnow]

Proper advice has been given.  If it's a fan problem, send it in for warranty.

Why someone wants to have a new unit with a sticking fan is beyond me.

I don't think we want to have "sticking fans" but it is a common issue, and acurite wants you to do all these "troubleshooting" steps. If the fan runs, then it's not the fan. My fan runs like a champ at times, so how can it be the motor? It has to be the panel/wiring/regulator.

[nincehelser]

(*sigh*) No one said anything about the motor specifically...just that the fan is sticking.  His report, but he doesn't want to go down that direction.

[DoctorKnow]

(*sigh*) No one said anything about the motor specifically...just that the fan is sticking.  His report, but he doesn't want to go down that direction.

Isn't the fan attached to the motor, and needs the motor to turn it?  LOL If the fan sticks, it's the motor not powering it. If the motor has no power, it's the solar panels, / wiring / regulator! 

[nincehelser]

No one said it isn't.  He just reported the fan sticking on a new unit.  That's enough to warrant a return regardless of the actual component that's failing.

[pcjunky]

(*sigh*) No one said anything about the motor specifically...just that the fan is sticking.  His report, but he doesn't want to go down that direction.

I've addressed your comments about proper aim in the Acurite forum.  I said I noticed the motor stick when I had it in my hands and was walking out of sunshine into my garage and then later took it back out into the sun again.  I had to tap the side of the body to get it running again.  I don't think I said it stuck more than once.  If I did it was a mistake.

As I've said multiple times my readings are okay later in afternoon when the sun is still strong and other stations in my area are reporting their daily highs.   You have not said the fan might not be working even though my readings are okay.   So I assume the fan is okay and moved on to other causes.

[nincehelser]

Yes, I mentioned the fan right at the start, and several times after that.  If you have to tap the body to start it in the sun, something's not right, especially on a new unit.

It was your denial that anything could be wrong with the fan that led to looking for other answers.

The answer is clear.  Return it.  Especially if you're so convinced it will not work in your environment.

[pcjunky]

pcjunky,

Don't worry about hijacking, that is what we are here for is to figure out what to do with the product. I doubt the mast has anything to do with the problems. Are you certain the station is level? If it is leaning, the fan may not be able to run at capacity, which is very important. Even with mine oiled and fairly level, I am still seeing about 2 degrees high at times, but like you, when the sun is in the western sky, the fan seems to run best. That indicates to me that there may be a slight issue with the eastern panel, although it meets acurites specifications. When we had a real hot day two days ago, the sensor read perfectly... This is a very odd device to figure out.

Thank you, I'll double check level. 

I took a close look after I posted earlier and noticed that the temperature spikes when the sun directly hits the gray "cockpit of blimp" area where the sense is located.  I think the plastic is heating the air in the area and is being pulled into the sensor by the fan.  As the sun moves away from the Eastern/front side less of the area is directly hit by the sun so my temps fall but there is still residual heat in the gray plastic so
it takes time to normalize.  I'll have to take a look later in day to see where the sun is hitting the gray part of the sensor body.

[DoctorKnow]

I honestly don't think it's his "environment". I think his fan is doing what mine seems to be, and that is run weaker in the first half of the day, and then pick up speed after the sun reaches a certain point near the southwestern sky. This leads to an early rise in temp. His eastern panel is likely even weaker than mine is. What the cause or fix is for this would get us fast satisfaction.

Thank you, I'll double check level.

I took a close look after I posted earlier and noticed that the temperature spikes when the sun directly hits the gray "cockpit of blimp" area where the sense is located.  I think the plastic is heating the air in the area and is being pulled into the sensor by the fan.  As the sun moves away from the Eastern/front side less of the area is directly hit by the sun so my temps fall but there is still residual heat in the gray plastic so
it takes time to normalize.  I'll have to take a look later in day to see where the sun is hitting the gray part of the sensor body.

Yes, the bottom heats up and painting fixed this with my original single solar panel unit. Also adding solar panels to the east and west side makes the fan start sooner and stops heat build-up. However, if you do any mods, you void acurites warranty. Their warranty is for one year, after that you can do what you want.

[nincehelser]

His theory is that the Acurite is not designed to work at his elevation of 4300' in Utah.

If he's convinced that's the case, then that's just another reason to return it.

[pcjunky]

Yes, I mentioned the fan right at the start, and several times after that.  If you have to tap the body to start it in the sun, something's not right, especially on a new unit.

It was your denial that anything could be wrong with the fan that led to looking for other answers.

The answer is clear.  Return it.  Especially if you're so convinced it will not work in your environment.

LOL,  I didn't say you didn't mention the fan at all.  I said my results later in the day indicate the fan was working and you didn't correct me. So I assumed you agreed and we went looking for other causes.

This is the first time you have said anything about the sensor possibly not working in my environment(higher altitude).  You've never stated your opinion on this either way.  I know the Acurite employees in the forum would never admit it so that's why I wanted to see what more users thought about possible issues @ higher altitudes.

I'd like to get it working, but I would also like Acurite to admit that there is a possible design flaw that doesn't account for stronger solar radiation @ higher altitudes.  What works on a sunny day in San Francisco probably doesn't work as well in similar conditions @ 4300'.   One of the easier things they could do is make the whole body white instead of just the top part.

[nincehelser]

I never agreed that your fan was working properly.  It's just that you have convinced yourself that is not the issue, thus leading the "wild goose chase".

No, I have not stated my opinion about your altitude.  If you think it is a problem, return it.

There we go... you want Acurite to "admit" something.  That's your real problem.

I think we're done here.  At least I am.

[pcjunky]

I honestly don't think it's his "environment". I think his fan is doing what mine seems to be, and that is run weaker in the first half of the day, and then pick up speed after the sun reaches a certain point near the southwestern sky. This leads to an early rise in temp. His eastern panel is likely even weaker than mine is. What the cause or fix is for this would get us fast satisfaction.

Thank you, I'll double check level.

I took a close look after I posted earlier and noticed that the temperature spikes when the sun directly hits the gray "cockpit of blimp" area where the sense is located.  I think the plastic is heating the air in the area and is being pulled into the sensor by the fan.  As the sun moves away from the Eastern/front side less of the area is directly hit by the sun so my temps fall but there is still residual heat in the gray plastic so
it takes time to normalize.  I'll have to take a look later in day to see where the sun is hitting the gray part of the sensor body.

Yes, the bottom heats up and painting fixed this with my original single solar panel unit. Also adding solar panels to the east and west side makes the fan start sooner and stops heat build-up. However, if you do any mods, you void acurites warranty. Their warranty is for one year, after that you can do what you want.

My mount isn't quite level but it's very close.  I need to move it to another more permanent location to be able to get it perfectly level and probably add tie wires. This time of year it's probably not a major issue.  When it gets hottest here is mid July and early August then western exposure to the panel will be more important.

I do think heating of the gray part of the sensor body is the problem during 10am to 2pm period.  I think for you @ sea level the sun is probably hitting that part of the 5-in-1 both earlier and later in the day but not during peak solar hours.

I have a mountain a few miles to the east of me that delays "sunrise" by about 40 minutes and my house also cast a shadow on the sensor an additional 30 minutes.  The sensor isn't getting any sun till about 9am.

I posted the following on the Acurite forum.  Please tell me what you think.

Acurite employees:
My temp reading @ 3pm its 61 degrees is within 2 degrees on a clear sunny day so can I assume the fan is working?

For reference my problem temp today compared to nearby station.
10am +14
11am +17
12pm +13
1pm +12
2pm +10
3pm +2

At this point I'm pretty sure the problem is related to direct sun hitting the gray plastic on the front/Eastern exposure.  As the sun moves in the sky less of the Eastern side is being hit directly and more of the south or front exposure is being hit.

The front gray part of the sensor body is separated from the temp sensor compartment by the round part of the plastic mounting bracket.  Therefore better insulating the sensor from direct sun hitting the front body.  I don't believe the sides have similar amount of plastic distance separating the side from the sensor compartment.

Why is the other side not an issue?  Possibly because the sun is less intense afternoon but I wont know until I've owned the 5-in-1 for a full year to check all the sun angles and temps.

Sun angles and altitude.
First off I have a mountain to the East that delays by sunrise by about 40 minutes. The shadow of my house also shades my sensor for about another 30 minutes.

Initially I thought the intensity of the sun @ higher altitude was the problem because I though the sun was only hitting the top white part of the sensor. It still maybe part of the problem but sun angle also plays a part. Between 10am and 2pm the sun is higher in the sky meaning a steeper angle to the ground floor.  If for example you're on the roof of a 100 story building and there is another tall building across the street.  You can't really see into the lower floors of the building across the street because of the steep angle.  But you're able to see into some of the floors further up from the ground because of the lower angle.  At peak solar hours the sun can't really hit the gray part of the sensor body at lower altitudes.  At higher altitudes the angle is less steep so the sun can directly hit the gray part.  Another example is watching a baseball game from the lower deck versus watching a game from the 3rd deck.  A baseball cap could protect your face from sunburn because of the steeper angle, but that same hat wouldn't give you the same protection in the 3rd deck because of the slightly lower angle.

I gladly welcome feedback and opinions.

[DoctorKnow]

I really think you have a solar panel problem. Open up the sensor by removing the four screws in the gray bottom with a long phillips head screw driver. (one screw is in the pole mount support) Be sure not to turn the rain gauge screws that are exposed at the very bottom. Then test the panels in the sun to see if they are running the fan by covering one or the other. You also may have bugs or spiders up in there like I did.

[bvstation]

Once it gets warm I'll be looking at wiring up that larger panel to the fan motor to pick up more juice. The other thread that this was discussed in (can't remember where) has others doing the same thing.

[nincehelser]

Once it gets warm I'll be looking at wiring up that larger panel to the fan motor to pick up more juice. The other thread that this was discussed in (can't remember where) has others doing the same thing.

More power would certainly cure a lot of these ills.

I had a thought that since the sensor is only read every 36 seconds, what if you pulsed the aspiration fan only during the period that the sensor was being read?  For example, what if you only ran the fan 50% of the time and stored energy in a battery or capacitor the other 50%?  Or maybe even better 25%/75%.  The stored power could be used during the morning and evening and/or used to pulse the fan at a higher speed.

The tricky part would be keeping the fan circuit properly synchronized with  the reading of the sensor.  One way might be to toggle the fan on and off every 18 seconds based on the 433MHz signal emitted by the 5n1. 

[DoctorKnow]

Proper shielding would cure the problems. The temp sensor needs to have natural ventilation first, then the added benefit of a fan. The 5 in 1 is an oven.

[nincehelser]

The key is pulling a fresh sample of air over the sensor.  In the case of the 5n1 design, that has to be done with a fan.  That's why added power, either through extra solar panels or a wired supply, simply works. 

You don't need to cool the whole 5n1 body, just bring a fresh sample of air to the sensor.

I'm not going to argue the thermodynamics of the situation with you.

It's as pointless as arguing the angle of the sun, 93,000,000 miles away, doesn't change significantly when you move 4300 feet in altitude.

[Inverno]

Bottom line here is either the fan is improperly working (insects, defective from factory) OR you are not pointing the solar panel side to the south with a compass (using true north not magnetic) OR you are mounting out on a roof, asphalt, etc that gives off heat. The bottom gray plastic will not give you 15 degrees of heat buildup. And altitude does not affect the unit. If you are adamant that Acurite is hiding something, return it and go with another brand. There are plenty of weather stations out there to choose from. Stop arguing with everyone on here, we are trying to help.

[pcjunky]

A little update: This morning I took down my sensor from the pole and mounted it lower so I could hear the fan running, take temperature readings and experiment with shielding.  Day started clear but it's been mostly cloudy and overcast most of the day but fan was running.   By 10am my reading was 10 degrees higher than other stations.  Before noon I decided to tape two sheets of 5x7 glossy photo paper to the East side of sensor body.  I don't think my results are valid because I didn't have clear skies all day, but here they are:

time (5-in1) (NWS)
10am (64) (54) +10
11am (69) (59) +10
12pm (70) (64) +6
1pm (71) (68) +3
2pm (73) (70) +3
3pm (72) (72)
4pm (68) (68)

Will update when I have clear day.  Thanks.

[DoctorKnow]

Looks like things got better. You might even try some aluminum foil. It reflects the sun real well.

[bvstation]

I wonder if adding a foil coating to most of the unit would help reflect some heat but I'm also still going to wire in another larger panel to the fan to make sure it runs right as the light hits it from sunrise to sunset vs just spotty on the small panels.