Author Topic: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?  (Read 1948 times)

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Offline dheraud

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Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« on: April 24, 2015, 12:13:51 PM »
Hello all!

New user, just got my system in the mail today (bridge+3-in-1+2x remote sensors).

I'm using a tower sensor in a cold room and was wondering if it's possible to hack the tower so that it either transmits from the outside (wired antenna from the tower in the cold room leads outside of the cold room) or that it takes the temperature inside the cold room from the outside (tower sensor sits outside the cold room and remote wired sensor is inside the cold room).

My main motivation is to get better range from the tower sensor to the bridge as the cold room cuts down the transmission quite a bit.

Thoughts?

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 12:54:03 PM »
Hello all!

New user, just got my system in the mail today (bridge+3-in-1+2x remote sensors).

I'm using a tower sensor in a cold room and was wondering if it's possible to hack the tower so that it either transmits from the outside (wired antenna from the tower in the cold room leads outside of the cold room) or that it takes the temperature inside the cold room from the outside (tower sensor sits outside the cold room and remote wired sensor is inside the cold room).

My main motivation is to get better range from the tower sensor to the bridge as the cold room cuts down the transmission quite a bit.

Thoughts?

How cold is the cold room?  I can't imagine it being so cold it is cutting down the transmission distance.  Typically cold impacts the batteries.  Alkalines should take you to -4F and lithiums to -40F.

Do you know how the walls of the room are constructed?  If the room is designed to be cold, things like foil-backed insulation are probably inhibiting the signal. 

Also, what's the approximate distance between the cold room sensor and the bridge, and what signal level (if any) are you currently seeing?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 01:11:12 PM by nincehelser »

Offline dheraud

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 01:43:18 PM »
Hi Nince,

I wasn't referring to the cold temperatures cutting down the transmission, but rather the metal walls of the cold room (which is typically around 2-4 degrees Celsius). Not much I can do to make the signal go through the walls I presume. Acu-Rite rates the tower sensors at 23m (about 90ft) when used in a cold room environment (or similar). This cuts transmission distance by 1/3.

Hence, I'm looking for a way to simulate what remote sensor thermometers do where you have the thermometer outside of the area to be monitored all the while having the wired sensor itself in the monitored environment.

This morning I was getting 1 bar on the interface, but I'd like to have a little more buffer than that so I don't lose the signal when I'm away.

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 02:34:43 PM »
Hi Nince,

I wasn't referring to the cold temperatures cutting down the transmission, but rather the metal walls of the cold room (which is typically around 2-4 degrees Celsius). Not much I can do to make the signal go through the walls I presume. Acu-Rite rates the tower sensors at 23m (about 90ft) when used in a cold room environment (or similar). This cuts transmission distance by 1/3.

Hence, I'm looking for a way to simulate what remote sensor thermometers do where you have the thermometer outside of the area to be monitored all the while having the wired sensor itself in the monitored environment.

This morning I was getting 1 bar on the interface, but I'd like to have a little more buffer than that so I don't lose the signal when I'm away.

OK.  One bar may be enough.  Since I assume this is all indoors, I suspect it should be a more stable environment.  If you look at the alarm settings on MBW, you should probably set it to alarm you if signal is lost from the sensor for more than an hour as a safety measure.

As for modifying the tower sensors, one difficulty is that their internal wiring seems to vary even though they look identical from the outside.  So you'll have to inspect the internals yourself carefully.  If you need help identifying things, photos would be a big help.

If you want to maintain both accurate temp and relative humidity readings, it would probably be easiest to try to bring the antenna through the wall.  Trying to bring both the humidity and temp sensors through the wall would be more involved since they are usually discrete devices in the tower.

The downside of mucking with the transmission antenna is that the FCC frowns on that sort of thing, so be advised.  Having a ham license might cover you, though, as the 433MHz transmitter falls within the 70cm amateur band allocation in the US.  The reason consumer devices are allowed to use this frequency is due to the very low power of the transmitter.

Anyway, what I would try is to replace the coiled antenna with a length of coax to feed through the wall, then cut the insulation off the end of the coax exposing the inner conductor (which will now act as an antenna) for 13 inches.  That will give you a 1/2 wave antenna which you'll likely want to mount vertically outside your cold room. 

Why 1/2 wave?  I'm not exactly sure.  The coiled antenna stretches out to 13 inches and the strait wire receivers are also 13 inches.  A 1/4 wave sounds more logical, but I'd start with the lengths Acurite is using in their gear as a start.  You could always cut it down to 6.5 inches and see if it makes any difference.

I'm ignoring the impedance matching issues here.  Most coax is 50 ohm, but many radio antenna feeds use 75 ohm.  I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make.  The worst thing that could happen is power reflecting back into the transmitter and damage it. 


Offline aweatherguy

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 02:27:58 AM »
George's idea sounds good. As far as transmitter damage is concerned, it only transmits for maybe 1/10  of a second at a time and at very low power (0.001 watt or less) so the likelihood of any damage to the transmitter is (IMHO) nil. The FCC will only care if you interfere with something important like the instrument landing system at a nearby airport...also extremely unlikely but don't quote me on that because I'll deny it...  :lol:


Offline dheraud

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 11:05:50 AM »
Thanks for the great info George! As I suspected, as I closed the cold room door last night I went out and lost the signal even though it worked yesterday morning with the door closed.

I just opened up my tower, here's some photos of the innards for reference (attached). Should I take out the spring antenna entirely and solder in a length of coax, or should I solder the coax to the spring? Coax is quite a bit thicker then this spring wire, is that what you meant about the resistance?

Any suggestions of getting the coax out of the case without drilling a gigantic hole through the case?

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 04:46:00 PM »
I'd remove the spring antenna by desoldering if possible.  Just in case you might want to revert to it.  If you leave it in it does add some inductance which would change the tuning of the antenna.... basically making things theoretically more complicated, but it might still work well enough.

You might try to find a thinner coax cable, otherwise you could try bringing a short wire for the antenna and another for a ground out of the case, then soldering those to the coax.  If you don't care about keeping the coiled antenna, you might straighten it out, run it outside the case and then clip it short before attaching it to the coax.  You'd still need a ground wire for the outer conductor of the coax, though.

Basically what you're trying to do is use the coax as a transmission line that gets the signal through the metal wall.  Once the coax is out of the wall, stripping off the outer conductor leaves the inner conductor to work as an antenna. 

The "resistance" mentioned is actually called "impedance" as the signal is AC.  Impedance takes into account the added complexity of alternating current running inductive (like the coiled antenna)  and capacitive elements.  In a perfect world, we would want the impedance of the antenna and transmission line to match that of the transmitter.  This allows for maximum power transfer.  The worse the match, the more power is wasted.  We're just sort of winging it here hoping the power loss won't be bad enough to matter. 

It's the same concept as matching your stereo speakers (usually 4 or 8 ohm impedance) to your amplifier to get the best performance.

Offline dheraud

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 10:29:26 AM »
I checked the impedance of the coax I have on hand and it reads at 50 ohms, as you predicted. I'll go by the local electronics store and see if they have anything more adequate there.

I can solder and understood most of that you said, but I'm no electrical/electronic engineer! haha Some of what you said went right over my head. Especially about the need to ground the coax. I'm not sure how to go about that, and why ground the coax if the original antenna isn't itself grounded?   :-|


Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 11:35:45 AM »
Ground the outer conductor of the coax to an a ground point on the transmitter board.  It's not grounding the "antenna", but rather setting up the "circuit" for the transmission line.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 11:41:15 AM »
How old is this sensor shown? Is this the one being sold today, because it looks like the guts of mine from 6 yrs ago.

Offline dheraud

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 07:24:44 PM »
DoctorKnow: That is indeed the one that was shipped out to me today.

George: Should I be using the same coax to ground to the board? And how would I recognize a ground point on the board?

On a side note, any thoughts on the possibility of converting the tower from battery powered to being powered by a DC power supply?

Offline aweatherguy

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 08:06:25 PM »
Here, I've circled what appears to be a ground connection. Solder the coax shield to that pin there at the top where it protrudes from the elevated daughter-board.

For a 3-volt wall wart you could use a model EPS030100-P7P power supply from CUI inc. Go here:

http://www.digikey.com

and search for the model number above. They are under $10 in single unit quantities and they have almost 300 in stock right now.

Cut the connector from the end of the cable and solder the wires to battery terminals. If you decide to proceed with that someone here can help you figure out just exactly where to attach the wires. On the other hand, these units usually go for well over a year with fresh batteries...



« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:08:17 PM by aweatherguy »

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 08:12:53 PM »
The "2014" on the board is a big tip-off to the age.  ;)

Aweatherguy's pointed to you to a good place.  As you can see, there's a "GND" near it, which is typically how the ground points are marked.  Sometimes you'll see them as symbols such as these: http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/Ground_Symbols.htm

As for the batteries, they'll last a long time...maybe as long as 18 to 24 months.  You'll just have to decide if it's worth the time and expense to hard-wire it.  MBW should give you an notice when the batteries are low.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:17:22 PM by nincehelser »

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 09:16:23 PM »
   dheraud

Thank you.

Nincehelser, it isn't a "tip off" if you don't know about it. I am not "in the know" when it comes to acurite secrets like you may be.

Offline nincehelser

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 09:32:00 PM »
2014?  That's a secret Acurite code?

I don't know any "Acurite secrets" other than what I and a few others have found out ourselves.

It is, however, normal for boards to be marked with a date and/or revision number.

Offline dheraud

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »
Hi there aweatherguy, and thanks for the info.

For the 3V power supply, I have a shop just down the road here that sells them, though it's not the same model you suggested. Are there any other specs I should be looking for beyond it being 3V?

Thanks!


Here, I've circled what appears to be a ground connection. Solder the coax shield to that pin there at the top where it protrudes from the elevated daughter-board.

For a 3-volt wall wart you could use a model EPS030100-P7P power supply from CUI inc. Go here:

http://www.digikey.com

and search for the model number above. They are under $10 in single unit quantities and they have almost 300 in stock right now.

Cut the connector from the end of the cable and solder the wires to battery terminals. If you decide to proceed with that someone here can help you figure out just exactly where to attach the wires. On the other hand, these units usually go for well over a year with fresh batteries...

Offline aweatherguy

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Re: Tower sensor with remote sensor/antenna?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2015, 04:46:54 PM »
It is a little hard to describe what to look for, covering all bases but here's the short version:

1) I don't think the power rating will be important -- the wireless sensor is designed to run over a year on batteries and as a result draws very little power. Any 3v wall wart should have enough power.

2) The only other thing would be the quality of the DC in terms of voltage ripple and voltage regulation (how close to 3.000V is it?). That may not be specified by the manufacturer however. If the unit is heavy, like maybe there is an iron transformer inside then ripple might be a concern. Otherwise if it is relatively light then ripple is probably going to be okay. This is all just guesses on my part and I cannot guarantee that it will work.

One thing that would be a good idea is after you buy it, connect one of those inexpensive digital voltmeters (you can probably find one under $10 at home/hobby stores) to the unit and make sure the volatage reads between say 2.8V and 3.5V; do this before connecting to the sensor. If it reads more than 3.5V you might damage the wireless sensor.