Author Topic: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution  (Read 2851 times)

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Offline typhoon

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Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« on: June 29, 2015, 07:53:54 PM »
Hello Weather Station Experts.

I’m in the market for a new Personal Weather Station.  I’ve done some research in the past and I was pretty much set to order a Rainwise MK-III LR PWS.  However, then I found this awesome website with its treasure trove of information.  After spending some time looking through different posts and spinning in circles, I’m now starting to second guess my choice.

To make matters worse, I’m now under the gun to make a selection and purchase very quickly (I wish this was not so).  Challenges are: I need to get approval from a neighborhood committee before I can install a PWS and I also need to have it bought and shipped before August.

I would love to continue to read the forums and reach a solution leisurely, but in light of my current time constraint, I’m hoping that some experts could chime in and help a newb accelerate his decision making process.

Full disclosure: I’m no expert and I’m looking at this as a hobby that I can become an expert in over a course of a lifetime.  If I didn't mention something that you'll know I'll need, by all means, please suggest it.

High-level: I have a remote, empty lot that I want to collect weather data on. The end game for me is that I would like to figure out what I can build and grow there in the future.  The period of study will be multi-year.

Here are the facts:
  • I’ll be installing the PWS in the state of Hawaii (21.3114° N, 157.7964° W)
  • I live in a different state and so I won’t have easy access to the PWS (i.e. need something to be maintenance free)
  • There are no electrical outlets available, so a solar solution is a must
  • There is no land line available, so cellular-internet is a must (Verizon seems to have good service at the location, AT&T/TMobile do not)
  • I understand that DIY sensor installations could reduce the price, but in light of the amount of time I’ll have there and a lack of electrical engineering skills on my part, I’m looking for an all-in-one solution (i.e. ship, set up, and forget).  If it’s simply a matter of plugging in a module - ok.  However, if new housing would need to be constructed to protect it from the elements then that would not be ok.
  • I need something that can be securely held in the ground because there are no natural wind barriers nearby (think open field) and it can get pretty windy from what I understand (hurricanes do come by)
  • Ideally, the PWS will need to be easily assembled in the field, hopefully using tools that I can check in on a plane or at a local hardware store (that I will have to leave behind). If I need to mix concrete then I guess I will have to (have done it before).
  • Sensors, sensors, sensors: I want to measure as much as I can.  At a minimum: temp, wind (speed/direction), precipitation.  Advice on which additional sensors to get would be greatly appreciated (i.e. "You may not need this now, but if I were you…").
  • I don’t mind spending more to get something more reliable (although it sounds like from repliers on other posts that there might not be such a correlation).  I believe the Rainwise package I was originally looking was about $1500 with data.
  • Spinning Rims: If there is one dream feature that I can think of (and yes, I do realize there are power management concerns) it would be to have a camera mounted on the PWS to send photographs over the cellular network/internet.  However, I’m willing to pass on this.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Offline Bushman

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 08:29:45 PM »
Search this forum for WeatherElement and Davis Vantage Connect.  Both proven remote systems.  IMO, a webcam will be trickier but a low power solution can be done with a Raspberry Pi, but it is not COTS solution.  And if you need someone to go to Hawaii to install it, let me know.  ;)
Need low cost IP monitoring?  http://wirelesstag.net/wta.aspx?link=NisJxz6FhUa4V67/cwCRWA or PM me for 50% off Wirelesstags!!

Offline typhoon

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 08:36:50 PM »
Thanks for the quick feedback Bushman.  I'll go checkout "WeatherElement" and "Davis Vantage Connect".  Free Install == Trip to Hawaii?  Sounds reasonable... I'm sure I'll be able to convince the wife to give up her ticket :)

Offline Skyview

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 11:25:49 PM »
We just got back from the Big Island a few weeks ago, although I see this is on Oahu. What you're trying to do gives me an idea, as we're planning to move there at some point and may buy land first. Good luck and definitely interested in how this works out for you.

Offline VaJim

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 07:50:08 PM »
What happened to your Rainwise station idea?

Offline typhoon

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 09:42:00 PM »
VaJim,

In the end, maybe I'll come to the realization that a Rainwise is still the best way to go (for me) - and that's ok.  When I scanned through this website before posting, I found quite a few posts that were positive and negative for both Rainwise and Davis devices.  Granted, some of the posts I read were over 5 years old and perhaps the technology has improved a lot since then (or maybe not - I don't know any better). 

Offline VaJim

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 05:40:34 AM »
IMHO....you can't make a better decision than going with a Rainwise.  I own Rainwise, Davis, Lacrosse, and Accurite.  The Rainwise is and always will be the 'flagship' of my observations.  Good luck!

Offline Bushman

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 10:41:11 AM »
IMHO....you can't make a better decision than going with a Rainwise.  I own Rainwise, Davis, Lacrosse, and Accurite.  The Rainwise is and always will be the 'flagship' of my observations.  Good luck!

Absolutely great stuff - but costly.  For the OP, he's looking at $2500 bucks plus misc. install parts (pole etc.) for the Rainwise MKIII and Telemet.  Not sure if it is possible to run a camera off it so that's extra as it likely would be with a Davis.
Need low cost IP monitoring?  http://wirelesstag.net/wta.aspx?link=NisJxz6FhUa4V67/cwCRWA or PM me for 50% off Wirelesstags!!

Offline Skywatch

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2015, 12:22:28 AM »
He mentioned looking at 1500$.  As for getting all the sensors you could want I think Davis is the answer. For 1500$ you could get a Vantage Pro2 + with leaf wetness, soil moisture and soil temperature. Davis makes Vantage Connect. But it would put you over the 1500$.

Just as both Davis and Rainwise have negative feedback they have positive. More people use both more stories to be told. Your most likely not going to find a station on the market that doesn't have some negative feedback.

I can't comment on Rainwise as I don't own one. I have a Vantage Pro2 + and I love it! I can't imagine having a better station and don't know how I ever got along without it.
I live in an apartment and for the moment am not a home weather watcher.

I am a storm chaser.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 08:37:44 AM »
A few things I believe make Davis VP2 stand out.
 
FARS a must in my opinion for accuracy especially in hotter climates.
 
Separation of wind and temperature/hum sensors another must and being able to mount anemometer with wireless xmitter just about anywhere.

Ability to melt frozen precipitation with heater in colder climates, Not a must but nice to have. 
Randy

Offline typhoon

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2015, 10:25:41 AM »
Thanks everyone for the feedback! 

The manufacturer front runners so far appear to be either Davis/Rainwise.

It's also starting to look like the deciding factor on manufacturer will be if their communication module can work on the Verizon network (CDMA).  I tried using my cell phone at the location last year and I recall seeing few to no bars with T-Mobile (basically no service). When I tried AT&T years before that, I don't recall if the experience was much different.  So GSM is out (for now). Thankfully my niece had her cell phone (Verizon) the last time we were there and it worked like a charm (voice+data).  This is what I found about cellular options so far:

* Davis has GSM pricing available [1], but I couldn't find CDMA.  I found in one of their brochures [2] that CDMA should be available in 03/15, but I don't see it elsewhere on their website.  After some Google searches, it looks like there are 3rd party vendors already selling them [3] [4] [5]
* I tried to look up WeatherElement (WeatherLabs?) [6] to see if it's meant to replace the Vantage Connect and ended up sending the company an email (still waiting to hear if they support CDMA and what their pricing is).  I'm still trying to figure out what the advantage is.  I found a post on WXForum from several years ago [7] describing the differences, but I'm not too sure if it's still true today.
* It appears that Rainwise does sell CDMA modems [8], but I'm still waiting to hear back from them on pricing (+ Telemet)

Does anyone know if these data services also expose an API so that I can do periodic data dumps/downloads for some offline number-crunching (more in the area of my expertise)?

[1] http://www.davisnet.com/weather/products/vantage-connect/service-plans.asp?pNum=06620&cISO=USA#plans
[2] http://www.davisnet.com/product_documents/weather/catalog_pages/Weather_Catalog.pdf
[3] http://www.provantage.com/davis-instruments-6621~7DAVS070.htm
[4] http://www.ambientweather.com/dadi06621c.html
[5] http://megadepot.com/product/davis-instruments-6621-vantage-connect-cdma-wireless-weather-station-receiver-usa
[6] http://www.weatherelement.com/products
[7] http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=5583.msg50852#msg50852
[8] http://www.rainwise.com/products/detail.php?ID=6745&Category=&pageNum_cart=/products/search.php

Offline SLOweather

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2015, 12:17:52 PM »
I have spent lots of time and a fair amount of money in developing cellular weather stations. Here is some hard won knowledge that might explain the situation.

The big cell companies are very hard to work with directly, especially for a little guy. And CDMA networks are harder to get on than GSM networks. Verizon's buy-in is steep at at least $25K to get a new device tested and approved to run on their network. That's THEIR fees, hardware design and construction not included.

AT&T was a little less, but has a monthly minimum billing after 18 months of $2500.

So, you need to find an MVNO (Mobile Virtual Network Operator) as the intermediary between you and the big carriers. They buy data in bulk, and resell it to little guys at a markup.

I can build cellular weather stations all day long. However, most people don't want to pay the costs. My first cellular weather station was built on a Davis VP2 and serial weatherlink, our custom WeatherElement Data Hub, a BlueTree Verizon cell router, and the cheapest Verizon data only plan they had, $40/month for 250 GB. The hardware totaled somewhere around $1,300, and runs off the site's 12 VDC solar system.

For WeatherLab, that's where I got my education. I did lots of research, made a lot of calls, tested with 3 carriers, and finally found one I could work with.

The WeatherLabs are custom drop-in Davis SIM board replacements designed by my engineer in Australia, requiring the addition of a 5 watt solar panel. They are GSM, and, through clever programming, and aggressive selection of the MVNO which uses T-Mobile's network (I'm getting the monthly SIM card service plus data for less than an AT&T reseller's SIM only monthly charge), we got our end user cost for data down to $10/month for 10 minute updates. Unfortunately, the REV B boards are out of stock and production, while the REV c board is still in design.

As a result, a while back, I found another affordable solution, the Zoom Telephonics 4530 cell router. It was GSM/SIM card, so my WeatherLab SIM cards worked in them no problem. I replaced the Verizon router with a Zoom, and saved a lot of money every month. However, it uses more power than the WeatherLab SIM replacement, ans, lacking shore power, requires a larger solar array.

Unfortunately, just as I was preparing to quote a 5 station system, the 4530 went out of production. The Zoom follow-on product will be AT&T only (no PCS channels) so it will be of little use to me unless I find a willing (affordable) AT&T partner.

As far as Vantage Connect, I understand they use T-Mobile as well.

Having said all that, I still have the Verizon router. If you want a station built on Verizon, I can do it, and I'll make you a deal on the router. Check with them and see what you can get for a data only plan. At $40/month, I'd have to mark it up $10 to make it worth my trouble.

Or, send me the lat/lon of your proposed location, and I'll check the T-Mobile coverage map. If it's in a fringe area, judicious selection of the outdoor antenna might work, compared to the crappy lil antenna in a cell phone.. I still have one un-used Zoom router here.

There are 2 other options that will work. We've done both of them. The first is an old laptop with a Verizon AirCard, and Internet Connection Sharing enabled. The second is a Verizon MyFi wireless hotspot and a wireless to Ethernet adapter. It's a kludge but it works.

If anyone knows of affordable cellular routers with Ethernet ports, please let me know.

Offline weatherc

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2015, 12:39:09 PM »
The homebuilt-solutuion, what runs my remote station :)

- Davis VP2
- Solarpanels + battery
- Raspberry (or its cousins) with WeeWx
- Raspberry cameramodule added to Raspberry (impressive value for the cost)
- 3G/4G + router

This gives totally free hands to do whatever wanted with the data as Raspberry runs a normal Linux.

Offline johnd

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2015, 01:13:32 PM »
The homebuilt-solutuion, what runs my remote station :)

- Solarpanels + battery

Would be useful to know:

1. What size solar panel
2. What size battery
3. Confirmation that it runs 24/7/365 and without ever needing supplementary charging of batteries
Prodata Weather Systems
Prodata's FAQ/support site for Davis stations
Includes many details on 6313 Weatherlink console.
UK Davis Premier Dealer - All Davis stations, accessories and spares
Cambridge UK

Sorry, but I don't usually have time to help with individual issues by email unless you are a Prodata customer. Please post your issue in the relevant forum section here & I will comment there if I have anything useful to add.

Offline SLOweather

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2015, 01:48:40 PM »
- 3G/4G + router

What brand/model router, please?

Offline weatherc

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Re: Advice on remote, self-sufficient PWS solution
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 03:19:41 PM »
Quote
1. What size solar panel
2. What size battery
3. Confirmation that it runs 24/7/365 and without ever needing supplementary charging of batteries

Depends on the powerusage and location. Up here at 60N is the winter a problem. But...
From start of February have it now runned 24/7.
Panels are 2 x 135W and battery 12V 110Ah.
This runs 2 x "Raspberrys" (1 x RasPi & 1 x Cubietruck), 1 x Blitzortung antennas/controller, router + 3G-dongle.

During summer is powerusage 240w/day when everything runs 24/7 and during wintertime do i reduce it to minimum, ca 24 w/day (Davis Envoy runs 24/7 and collecting computer during daytime only and hourly uploads).
More batterypower would be on shoppinglist but without any new power from the sun runs this the whole system 24/7 for ca 3 days, and with minimum usage for weeks.

Quote
What brand/model router, please?

Dovado what runs directly on 12V. Due to the multiple toys used do i have PRO, but there is a one-port TINY too. Advantages with Dovados are connection-tracking (restart if 3G wents down, one can set the IP's it monitors for the check) and SMS-commands.

EDIT: The remote station webpage is here
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 04:15:22 PM by weatherc »