Author Topic: ClimateGate all over again  (Read 1646 times)

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Offline ValentineWeather

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ClimateGate all over again
« on: February 08, 2017, 07:46:50 AM »
With all the news, much FAKE being reported this days this came out yesterday from capital hill.
I'm sure this will be marginalized by the critics to ignore whistle blowers.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/07/federal-scientist-cooked-climate-change-books-ahead-obama-presentation-whistle-blower-charges.html
Randy

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 09:35:13 AM »
Corruption runs deep. Not surprised, as the left is heavily invested in solar arrays and alternative energy. Many here know about how the thermometers are placed over hot tarmac.

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 09:45:56 AM »
This is what I call slow down:

- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69°F (0.94°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 1880–2016 record.

- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57°F (1.43°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18°F (0.10°C).

(Note that the second hottest was 2015...)

- Record high temperatures over land surfaces were measured across Far East Russia, Alaska, far western Canada, a swath of the eastern United States, much of Central America and northern South America, southern Chile, much of eastern and western Africa, north central Siberia, parts of south Asia, much of southeast Asia island nations and Papua New Guinea, and parts of Australia, especially along the northern and eastern coasts. No land areas were cooler than average for the year.

- During 2016, the globally-averaged sea surface temperature was 1.35°F (0.75°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record

- Recent trends in the decline of Arctic polar sea ice extent continued in 2016. When averaging daily data from the National Snow and Ice Data Center, and noting that there was an unanticipated sensor transition during the year, the estimated average annual sea ice extent in the Arctic was approximately 3.92 million square miles, the smallest annual average in the record.

- The annual Antarctic sea ice extent was the second smallest on record, behind 1986

Offline tbrasel

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 10:07:32 AM »
This is what I call slow down:


This is what I call #FAKEDATA

Worthless as bosoms on a bore hog!
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tbrasel

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Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 10:14:38 AM »
Just like you call this fake data, I all your arguments fake as well, just lobby from oil companies and others who benefit from denying climate change

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 10:46:41 AM »
I think the answer is somewhere inbetween. It has warmed from the last ice age, but nature is cycling too. The arctic waters have been less ice free even recently before the industrial Co2 scare. The Norse settled Greenland from Iceland during a warm period sailing now iced over land and waters.
 
I also think books have been cooked to support the continuing hysteria. If you are not onboard funding is removed. Its easy to get scientist to go with the flow since funding comes from the governments and if you disagree your livelihood of scientific research goes unfunded.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 10:49:19 AM by ValentineWeather »
Randy

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 11:45:14 AM »
Just published today.... to show you Im not picking up stuff that "suits" me... Im just using the latest info...

Quote
On Thursday, areas near the North Pole are predicted to be 10 to 15 degrees warmer than normal (which is about minus-20), which is near the melting point. This may mark the third occasion since November and the fourth time in just over a year that temperatures have warmed to this uncommon winter level near the Pole.

A recent study in the scientific journal Nature said that, since the late 1950s, warmth of this intensity has occurred only about once or twice a decade. Due to a reduction in sea ice and warming winter temperatures, such warm events are expected to increase in frequency, the study said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/89194870/hurricaneforce-atlantic-storm-to-push-north-pole-to-melting-point-in-winter

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 12:45:56 PM »
You can move thermometers a short distance and get warmer readings. I can move mine around my yard and see a rise of 5 degrees easy. We are to take the word of something we have no personal knowledge of how these reports are being propagated, and if it's non partisan. The slow down of rising temperatures is being ignored.

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 01:13:25 PM »
This is absurd, you see these results and so you say that thermometers were moved, even though you have absoutely no evidence that in this particular case, at these particular stations this happened.

And I can argue back with the exact same logic. Yes, temps can be quite different when you move the thermometer. So I could say that the difference and trend could be even more significant, but since they moved the thermometers (as you suggest), they moved them to a colder place, just a few meters away, to mask the true impact of global warming.

You said it yourself - moving thermometer makes a big difference. Just that like me you have no evidence that in this particular case this happened and if it did, you dont know which direction the temperature was biased.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 01:35:00 PM »
I am not saying the thermometer was moved... I am saying it could have been, or was the data taken from a thermometer that did not exist 50 yrs ago, or whenever they claim the period of time was that they are using to support the hypothesis. Did the landscape change? Did the ground become propagated with buildings nearby, or runways? Have the trees been taken out of the area? This will affect the end result, and I believe that almost no landscape has remained untouched over a period of X.

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 01:38:50 PM »
I 100% agree with everything you say, just that all your arguments only tell us "it could and most likely was somehow biased" - but whether the reality is that global warming is not so significant, or the other way around (it is even worse), is the question none of us knows the answer to.

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 01:48:59 PM »
what all this talk of funding again?
there are plenty of climate scientists around the world who do not rely on funding to show research of global warming
I think you need to come up with a better work story, its sounding like a stuck record

Offline Jstx

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 02:14:58 PM »
You can move thermometers a short distance and get warmer readings. I can move mine around my yard and see a rise of 5 degrees easy. We are to take the word of something we have no personal knowledge of how these reports are being propagated, and if it's non partisan. The slow down of rising temperatures is being ignored.

Nobody, least of all the professionals of the world's weather/meteo services (like Jáchym), are "moving" the mutha effen AWOS/ASOS's instruments around to bias the WX data readings, in order to fulfill the feverdreams of the world's climate denier nutcases.

There are very strict siting protocols for positioning official meteorological instruments. And non-professional ones like ours, if you'd just read, for example, the CWOP guide, or even the one packed with your WS.

You can even verify the positioning of almost any WX instrument worldwide by either visiting it yourself (easy enough for local airports, etc). They are seldom moved.
Or by using some of the greatest instruments yet devised: satellite images, often freely available from many sources; you can get a WS's L/L and pull up a map/chart/satimg and zoom right in to it. Verify it yourself.
Using factual, objective data and methods. Just like the pros do (well, not quite, they are far more accurate, and they have to run that ol' "peer review" gauntlet).

BTW, those satellites, and all of our other NOAA/NASA/etc stuff is perhaps some the best, highest use of our tax dollars there is (urkurk, will not take cheap shots...).

I use sat images often, one use is to compare my charts and eyeballs with them, for nav aboard while underway (some of the nice, more modern than mine, chartplotters integrate stored or real-time access sat images (of varying age of course), very nice, I just use a tablet or laptop).
And 'planning' ahead for a Pacific voyage (maybe...). Also to follow TIGHAR, one of my fav (small) time sinks, checking out Nikumaroro/Gardner Island.  :-)

Offline Jstx

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 02:35:10 PM »
BTW, Jáchym, waiukuweather, and others around here, keep up the good fight; don't back down, the same kind flailed away on Galileo, Fleming, et al., too.

And another 'BTW': all the official thermometers around me for 200+ miles are hovering (AO ~1230h) around 90°F, plus or minus a few. Many more daily records will be set.
This has happened quite a few times this winter, and it ain't effen normal! Mine is reading 85°F ATT and there's still 2-3 hours of solar heating to go (it's very sunny).

A/C's going like crazy, just paid my electric bill, hell yes I'm going to go solar PV panels. Who wants to mess with the bills, or a diesel genset.
Heck, I even put in a few Solar gas turbine gensets long ago, whooee those little puppies could scream like a J79   :shock:.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 02:56:22 PM by Jstx »

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 02:43:56 PM »
Hi John,
thanks :D

Though I want to say one more thing. It might look like me, you and Brian are one of the very few in support of GW, however I got many PMs, even from people you probably wont think would say this, that they think the same, just dont want to "fight" here.


Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 02:48:09 PM »
What you said with the thermometers exactly illustrates the logic people often use.

Look:

Facts:
- thermometers can sometimes be moved - TRUE
- moving a thermometer can have substantial effect on the measured values - TRUE INDEED
- it could introduce bias to the overall results - TRUE

However, here is the problem:
- thermometers were moved to a place that is warmer and so caused these alarming high temperatures - NO EVIDENCE -> YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE ABOVE

Just like saying
- thermometers were moved to a place that is colder and so the reality is even more alarming

I see this so often, people say facts, however base their conclusion on interpretatino of these facts which is either subjective or without any evidence

Please post a link to studies that prove that thermometers were moved and were moved so that they always measure higher temperatures.


Offline Jstx

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 03:08:41 PM »
Hi John,
thanks :D

Though I want to say one more thing. It might look like me, you and Brian are one of the very few in support of GW, however I got many PMs, even from people you probably wont think would say this, that they think the same, just dont want to "fight" here.

Heck, Jáchym, I'll 'fight' anywhere anymore, figuratively anyway, heheh.
I'm pushing 70 (yeow  :shock:), don't much give a chit noway nohow. And renewing my LTC has nothing to do with that. :twisted:
It must be the ornery Irish/Scots/English/FrenchCanadien/German/Finn/Pole/Chippewa/whatever gene pool mix. :-x

Offline saratogaWX

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2017, 03:21:36 PM »
What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources.  It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations.  The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.

They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming.  The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming.  So, it's happening.  It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world.  Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.
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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 03:33:43 PM »
what all this talk of funding again?
there are plenty of climate scientists around the world who do not rely on funding to show research of global warming
I think you need to come up with a better work story, its sounding like a stuck record

Do you have sources?

Randy

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2017, 03:35:19 PM »
What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources.  It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations.  The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.

They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming.  The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming.  So, it's happening.  It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world.  Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.

Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.
Randy

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2017, 03:35:26 PM »
Exactly Ken.

And prohibiting the climate specialists from communicating with the public and canceling all the funds is not going to solve the problem. It is not going to have major consequences in the next decade or so (although it can also influence the extremes and disasters), but later when it will it is going to be too late to do something. Some people obviously only care about themselves and about their economical benefit and they dont really have to worry what is going to be in a more distant future - and I guess I dont have to say who Im talking about now. (How old is he?....)

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2017, 03:37:13 PM »
If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.

If you want people to install solar arrays, make it affordable, so that everyone can have them on their roof, and not just elites looking to cash in.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 03:38:58 PM by DoctorKnow »

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2017, 03:38:49 PM »
If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.

No-one is saying China shouldn't do anything AS WELL

Offline Jáchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2017, 03:40:09 PM »
What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources.  It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations.  The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.

They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming.  The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming.  So, it's happening.  It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world.  Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.

Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.

Yes, and I could easily argue the data is indeed manipulated, by the lobbying oil companies, car manufacturers etc. - to make it look less significant. I have as much evidence for this as you have for the data being manipulated in the other way.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 03:40:41 PM »
If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.

No-one is saying China shouldn't do anything AS WELL
China is where the head of the issue of CO2 is shown to be taking place. We are shut down here, and we are still melting according to the "data".

 

anything