Author Topic: Just look at this junk  (Read 5189 times)

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Offline Beaudog

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Just look at this junk
« on: June 04, 2014, 02:15:47 PM »
Here is the quality control graph for my barometer.  Come on now. If my input was that spastic I would have solid red X's.       How can they call this a control standard?


Offline W3DRM

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 02:23:18 PM »
Don't feel bad - mine look similar and have been that way for quite a while now. I just ignore them. It is very obvious that something in their algorithms is not right.
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Offline txweather.org

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 04:44:23 PM »
I am glad to know that I am not the only one.

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 05:05:46 PM »
ok here..
 


Offline dj1111s

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 05:57:51 PM »
Don't feel bad - mine look similar and have been that way for quite a while now. I just ignore them. It is very obvious that something in their algorithms is not right.

LOL looks like a 2 year old took a Crayon to the wall.  Mine have never been that bad.
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Offline WA4TM

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 06:38:12 PM »
One of my better ones.....  Here lately it has been much worse...  I finally just quit worrying about them and their silly charts.
My baro is usually close enough, what I have problems with is the rel humidity anyl..
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 06:40:30 PM by WA4TM »

Offline Jumpin Joe

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 08:30:04 PM »
One of my better ones.....  Here lately it has been much worse...  I finally just quit worrying about them and their silly charts.
My baro is usually close enough, what I have problems with is the rel humidity anyl..


Mine is much worse.... Called it to their attention and was told I have a stuck sensor... WRONG!

Just ignore it... I am.

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Offline SlowModem

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 09:10:11 PM »
I think everyone's barometer looks fine.  If CWOP won't give you a good rating, I will!

Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN USA

Offline Jumpin Joe

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 09:31:40 PM »
I think everyone's barometer looks fine.  If CWOP won't give you a good rating, I will!



Thanks Greg... I needed that. :grin:
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Offline W3DRM

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 09:34:33 PM »
I think everyone's barometer looks fine.  If CWOP won't give you a good rating, I will!



Thanks Greg... I needed that. :grin:

Thanks Greg - haven't one of those in a long time for my Baro readings...  ](*,)
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Offline WA4TM

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 09:35:29 PM »
Same here!!!  Thanks
I think everyone's barometer looks fine.  If CWOP won't give you a good rating, I will!



Thanks Greg... I needed that. :D

Offline Snidely J. Whiplash

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2014, 06:38:30 PM »
Don't feel bad - mine look similar and have been that way for quite a while now. I just ignore them. It is very obvious that something in their algorithms is not right.

Please forgive my impertinence as a newbie; but for this CWOP QC red X thingy...I have this vision of some guy in a room in his mother's basement using a pentium II laptop with an Excel 95 spreadsheet trying to second guess a government agency that uses rows and rows, banks and banks of supercomputers for their weather modeling..... :?

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 07:46:25 PM »
I'm getting the same kind of junk. Look at the analysis pressure its all over the place and I got Sensor fails following checks:
L3 Spatial Consistency.
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2014, 07:47:43 PM »
Folks, don't beat up a service that feeds Mesonet, et. al.  Take the time to calibrate your stations, etc.  Many of the barometer readings are taken from 'inside' sensors, not outside, for e.g. You'll not calibrate over 24 hours... it takes several days/weeks of monitoring. The system is not perfect, certainly... most "refinements" take place server-side on Wednesdays... not daily. Also remember that "YOUR READINGS" are YOUR READINGS,... not a station 50 miles away! Work to acquire the thumbs up, and your stations should be responding as others, within the 'range' of expected parameters... and 'Expected' is the clue... If you are unable to determine how to calibrate, and adjust your software and hardware, then you must accept a red X.,.. or simply go on about life, with the readings you have locally,. Either Or. 
Does this mean that your station is accurately reporting?  Heck no!. Does it mean your station is perfect? Heck no. Does it mean that CWOP is accurate for  your location? Heck No!... but by golly, if you'll take the time, avoid 'quick adjustments' and be patient, you may be surprised...
 


Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 08:08:37 PM »
Cutty I'm talking about the analysis pressure being all over the place. The extreme up and down pressure spikes can't be accurate. My other station looks fine, but some of the stations are getting bad analysis data for unknown reasons. Cwop 1122 has been reporting 11 years and I don't recall this issue before with pressure.
The other station chart attached. 
Randy

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2014, 08:13:11 PM »
Cutty I'm talking about the analysis pressure being all over the place. The extreme up and down pressure spikes can't be accurate. My other station looks fine, but some of the stations are getting bad analysis data for unknown reasons. Cwop 1122 has been reporting 11 years and I don't recall this issue before with pressure.
The other station chart attached. 
I don't disagree with you at all.  I have experience similar issues. Matter of fact, I caused some, when my Humidity sensor failed, and caused spikes all over the place... I'n simply suggesting, especially for new folks, to give CWOP time to correct itself. I realize I didn't say it well.. sorry... it can take up to a month, in my experience, depending on station, for things to "level out'... try a shorter 'last 'x' days' instead of the default, for example. That doesn't mean that the most recent readings were 'wildly' in error...

And in fact, the 'extreme' pressure difference can be accurate... since most are 'inside' rather than outside, what's your HVAC doing at the moment?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 08:15:27 PM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline Skywatch

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2014, 09:24:51 PM »
FWIW, I don't pay much attention to the quality check system. I use Mesowest map to compare my data. If my data is close to surrounding stations it's good enough for me.
I live in an apartment and for the moment am not a home weather watcher.

I am a storm chaser.

Offline txweather.org

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2014, 09:39:10 PM »
I just sent an email to their mailing list.
Now waiting.

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Offline W3DRM

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2014, 11:37:17 PM »
Don't feel bad - mine look similar and have been that way for quite a while now. I just ignore them. It is very obvious that something in their algorithms is not right.

Please forgive my impertinence as a newbie; but for this CWOP QC red X thingy...I have this vision of some guy in a room in his mother's basement using a pentium II laptop with an Excel 95 spreadsheet trying to second guess a government agency that uses rows and rows, banks and banks of supercomputers for their weather modeling..... :?

Okay, here is some background on the CWOP Barometer QC checks. Years ago, no one was having any problems with (or even complaining about) the CWOP QC reports. I was tracking very closely to what the analysis reports showed and I also got consistent two-thumbs up reports. Then, back a year or so ago everyone's barometer CWOP QC reports started going crazy with just about everyone getting red X's on their reports, including me. Many of us contacted the CWOP QC folks and were immediately told that the algorithms had been changed and that the problem was with our barometers being either faulty or out of calibration. Well, that went over like a lead balloon. It was obvious back then, as well as now, that something is drastically wrong with the data that the CWOP QC folks are using. As many have written in this thread and many other threads, barometric pressures simply DO NOT change that dramatically and continue to do so over an extended period of time. Sure they can swing very drastically when there is an approaching storm, hurricane or tornado but continuous spiking 24-hours a day is indicative of other data collection issues that the powers to be don't want to address or acknowledge.

I have tried very diligently to set my barometer to an accurate reading based on a nearby airport but neither my readings nor those at the airport show any of the spiking I see on the Analysis reports for my area. I can only conclude that while I do not have a room full of computers or a Pentium II running an Excel 95 spreadsheet and I am NOT trying to second-guess the experts, the problem is NOT MINE. I am only saying that what I and many others see in our analysis reports just can't be accurate.

For these reasons alone, I have simply made the decision to not even look at the CWOP QC reports since they don't show reality.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 11:39:58 PM by W3DRM »
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Offline SlowModem

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2014, 12:41:33 AM »
For these reasons alone, I have simply made the decision to not even look at the CWOP QC reports since they don't show reality.

Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN USA

Offline Snidely J. Whiplash

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2014, 03:44:30 AM »
Don't feel bad - mine look similar and have been that way for quite a while now. I just ignore them. It is very obvious that something in their algorithms is not right.

Please forgive my impertinence as a newbie; but for this CWOP QC red X thingy...I have this vision of some guy in a room in his mother's basement using a pentium II laptop with an Excel 95 spreadsheet trying to second guess a government agency that uses rows and rows, banks and banks of supercomputers for their weather modeling..... :?

Okay, here is some background on the CWOP Barometer QC checks. Years ago, no one was having any problems with (or even complaining about) the CWOP QC reports. I was tracking very closely to what the analysis reports showed and I also got consistent two-thumbs up reports. Then, back a year or so ago everyone's barometer CWOP QC reports started going crazy with just about everyone getting red X's on their reports, including me. Many of us contacted the CWOP QC folks and were immediately told that the algorithms had been changed and that the problem was with our barometers being either faulty or out of calibration. Well, that went over like a lead balloon. It was obvious back then, as well as now, that something is drastically wrong with the data that the CWOP QC folks are using. As many have written in this thread and many other threads, barometric pressures simply DO NOT change that dramatically and continue to do so over an extended period of time. Sure they can swing very drastically when there is an approaching storm, hurricane or tornado but continuous spiking 24-hours a day is indicative of other data collection issues that the powers to be don't want to address or acknowledge.

I have tried very diligently to set my barometer to an accurate reading based on a nearby airport but neither my readings nor those at the airport show any of the spiking I see on the Analysis reports for my area. I can only conclude that while I do not have a room full of computers or a Pentium II running an Excel 95 spreadsheet and I am NOT trying to second-guess the experts, the problem is NOT MINE. I am only saying that what I and many others see in our analysis reports just can't be accurate.

For these reasons alone, I have simply made the decision to not even look at the CWOP QC reports since they don't show reality.

W3DRM, my sincerest apologies to you and anyone/everyone that took umbrage at my statement....my bad, I was less than completely clear about who/what I was referring to (with the laptop).

I was actually supporting what you and so many others have stated.....

I'll try and sort out the mess I've just made....here we go....in  my first post (ever) I had asked about "Who or What" was the source of the never ending grief with the red X. A fine young gentleman pointed me in the direction of....http://wxqa.com/AllenFreeMetQC.pdf.......which I read and read, and hopefully understood, and then reread again......

from page 2.....MADIS ingests data from many non-NOAA/NWS Mesonet stations
Creates a spatially dense met data set to assist with forecasting
Usually small, privately operated or DOT related stations
Generally do not have routine QC
MADIS applies buddy-system QC checks
to these data
Models data for each station based on nearby stations
Generates modeled minus measured error data in real
time

from page 5....CWOP value added:
Takes MADIS QC and repackages it into an accessible
format

User friendly, “push” email system
Daily, Weekly, Monthly quality summaries and diagnostics
for core surface obs: Temp, RH/DP, BP, Wind

from the CWOP info page...

Quality Control Notes
This page reports on the quality control checks performed by MADIS. The green check mark and red cross are chosen based on the average performance during the analysis period (which is selectable above). The red cross can appear even if MADIS reports that all observations pass the MADIS QC checks.

The 'MADIS rating' reports on the percentage of observations that pass the MADIS checks. You should aim for two thumbs up!


How the hell can someone/something take data that has been QC'd and accepted (two thumbs up) by NWS/MADIS (banks and banks, rows and rows of supercomputers) to use in their weather models and then, ..... after the fact, run their own flippin' QC (value added) on the NWS/MADIS QC (using a pentium II laptop with an Excel 95 spreadsheet)....and then suggest by large red X's over top of 2 green thumbs up....that the NWS/MADIS QC is wrong?

Algorithms, me ars~

Can't work....doesn't work.....not even on paper.

Boys and girls......each and every one of you has forgotten more about weather, weather stations and all the associated sundry info and knowledge that goes along with it......than I will ever learn......and again, my apologies to all, for being less than completely clear about where my sarcasm was pointed.






Offline Aardvark

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2014, 11:14:23 AM »
I  look at it this way,  on my end the data is good. I check my sensors for cleanliness and accuracy and I am happy with the readings.  I have 3 Envoy consoles and 1 regular and I compare them with the one that is sending the data here and there.

It is my feeling, I'll send the data as it is free and what these places do with it is their business.  I have looked at the quality control graphs and sometimes it is spot on and some times it isn't and I used to worry until I figured out how they were being done.  They are compared to those stations around me that sends in the data.   Not realizing that some of these place could be sending in faulty data, that they are in different environments, they could be improperly set..  I know of one guy who has his ISS  set so that the rain runs off his roof into the rain collector and another has every thing turned around bass-ackwards. 

I wouldn't sweat it at all my friend.  If you know you are fine, then it is their problem.

Offline Snidely J. Whiplash

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2014, 03:53:12 PM »

  I wouldn't sweat it at all my friend.  If you know you are fine, then it is their problem.

Yep...I'm gonna go kidnap Nell and tie her to the railway track...I get into less trouble doing that...

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2014, 03:58:20 PM »
....and then along comes Jones...
 


Offline Aardvark

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Re: Just look at this junk
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2014, 04:35:13 PM »
....and then along comes Jones...
Wait, here comes Duddley Doright  with Rocky and Bullwinkle (don't be winking your bulls at me) ](*,)

 

anything