Author Topic: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed  (Read 7941 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Arthurhh

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • IT Fixer
    • Tokoroa Weather Live
Hearing that the Authour of Lightsoft weather software for the MAC has stopped developement for declining health reason set me to thinking.

WD is I think the most preiminate software in the PWS arena. It is basically developed by One Guy! And I doubt many if any other coders would be able to pick up and run with it.

So the question is what happens should the WD developer get hit by a bus or just plain retire?


Offline mackbig

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4128
    • Mackie's Main Street, Unionville, ON Canada Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 06:32:01 AM »
Cross your fingers, find a safe backup for your install files and registration keys, and hope the WU and CWOP protocols dont change.

Andrew

Andrew - Davis VP2+ 6163, serial weatherlink, wireless anemometer, running Weather Display.  Boltek PCI Stormtracker, Astrogenic Nexstorm, Strikestar - UNI, CWOP CW8618, GrLevel3, (Station 2 OS WMR968, VWS 13.01p09), Windows 7-64

Offline Dr Obbins

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 06:34:29 AM »
Quote
So the question is what happens should the WD developer get hit by a bus
Saying that he wins the lottery is a little more up beat.  ;)
Being a WD user with much time invested in setting up WD and the webpage that is built around it, I have actually posted similar statements in the WD forum with out any clear reply.

So I would think that the last version would live on - until it get phased out by something else. If there is a void and a demand for a product, something will come along to fill that void. Especially if there is $$ to be made. I do not worry about WD becoming obsolete as it is for many years. As far as getting help goes, the forum could live on.

(I back up everything on an external hard drive)

Offline DaculaWeather

  • WxElement panel
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3206
    • North Georgia Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 08:06:02 AM »
VWS is the same way, Ed is the only developer of that package.


Offline Cynjut

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • Bellevue, NE local weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 02:25:41 PM »
IMHO

The "responsible" thing to do is, when you decide you've done all the damage you can with a package as popular as these, is to push it out onto SourceForge and try to find someone that wants to moderate its maintenance.  if the code is available and there is truly a need for the software, the author should be able to find one or more people that want to see if maintained into the future.

Offline TNETWeather

  • Kevin Reed (KrelvinAZ)
  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Davis Vantage Pro2+ with full FARS
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 02:43:12 PM »
The "responsible" thing to do is, when you decide you've done all the damage you can with a package as popular as these, is to push it out onto SourceForge and try to find someone that wants to moderate its maintenance.  if the code is available and there is truly a need for the software, the author should be able to find one or more people that want to see if maintained into the future.

Nice idea but I can think of a number of reasons why that would not happen.  The most obvious would be licensing issues.

Many packages use libraries that are licensed to the developer for use and distribution.   It is not uncommon for those licensed libraries to be non-transferable and some cases can be quite expensive and sometime not even available to to be licensed again (IE they are old).

Without those licensed libraries, whole sections of the resulting program may not even be available.

Then there is the issue of support.  Dumping code of what was a non-open source project may not have documentation of how it works with just code being code with your roadmap.  A larger application that has been developed for many years may be well understood by the author, and a complete unknown mess by anyone else. 

Without notes on how or where stuff is, it might not be worth someones time to get up to speed...

Even if is then distributed as "Free" it still costs time to work with it.
All you need is Time, Aptitude and Desire ... and you can build just about anything...

Offline DaculaWeather

  • WxElement panel
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3206
    • North Georgia Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 02:49:00 PM »
I can't even imagine what it would be like to go and fix WD code. I would say next to impossible!

Offline Arthurhh

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • IT Fixer
    • Tokoroa Weather Live
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 08:27:52 PM »
I can't even imagine what it would be like to go and fix WD code. I would say next to impossible!

I am guessing your right, it woukd be like someone trying to pick over my code only worse with the complexities and the weather knowledge needed as well to perform many of the functions.

It is a worry, I am heavily invested in WD and Saratoga Templates. The templates are okay I have a good handle on those but it relies on the testtags and clientraw* files almost totally and that is a WD thing.

Must admit I have been concerned enough about my exposure that I have considered an alternative dev for myself of the features I need (WU Upload, CWOP Upload, Testtags and clientraw* mainly). Reading a VP2 is not hard, storing the data is not hard, manipulating the data not hard, creating the output files also not hard but limited as the File Formats are really WD'd Intelectual Property. Tieing it all together though is a serious investment of time which I dont have (Plus I lack some of the needed skills but could learn them).

Offline DaculaWeather

  • WxElement panel
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3206
    • North Georgia Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 08:56:01 PM »
I use both VWS and WD so two sets of data. Although if you lost one piece of software, changing scripts to use the other piece of software might be an even bigger problem.

Offline W3DRM

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Emmett Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 08:57:52 PM »
The "responsible" thing to do is, when you decide you've done all the damage you can with a package as popular as these, is to push it out onto SourceForge and try to find someone that wants to moderate its maintenance.  if the code is available and there is truly a need for the software, the author should be able to find one or more people that want to see if maintained into the future.

Nice idea but I can think of a number of reasons why that would not happen.  The most obvious would be licensing issues.

Many packages use libraries that are licensed to the developer for use and distribution.   It is not uncommon for those licensed libraries to be non-transferable and some cases can be quite expensive and sometime not even available to to be licensed again (IE they are old).

Without those licensed libraries, whole sections of the resulting program may not even be available.

Then there is the issue of support.  Dumping code of what was a non-open source project may not have documentation of how it works with just code being code with your roadmap.  A larger application that has been developed for many years may be well understood by the author, and a complete unknown mess by anyone else. 

Without notes on how or where stuff is, it might not be worth someones time to get up to speed...

Even if is then distributed as "Free" it still costs time to work with it.

So, IMHO what Kevin is really saying could be construed to be a suggestion that someone needs to immediately start developing a "new" weather software package that starts out and continues to remain in an "open source" environment such as SourceForge.

Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
Davis Wireless VP2, WD 10.37s150,
StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
--- Logitech HD Pro C920 webcam (off-line)
--- RIPE Atlas Probe - 32849

Offline DaculaWeather

  • WxElement panel
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3206
    • North Georgia Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 08:58:46 PM »
Did you say Kevin is doing that?  :grin:

Offline W3DRM

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Emmett Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 09:00:31 PM »
Did you say Kevin is doing that?  :grin:

No, but that is a great idea  ;)
Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
Davis Wireless VP2, WD 10.37s150,
StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
--- Logitech HD Pro C920 webcam (off-line)
--- RIPE Atlas Probe - 32849

Offline TNETWeather

  • Kevin Reed (KrelvinAZ)
  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Davis Vantage Pro2+ with full FARS
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:30 PM »
So, IMHO what Kevin is really saying could be construed to be a suggestion that someone needs to immediately start developing a "new" weather software package that starts out and continues to remain in an "open source" environment such as SourceForge.

I am not making that suggestion at all.  I simply responded to a post who said...

The "responsible" thing to do is, when you decide you've done all the damage you can with a package as popular as these, is to push it out onto SourceForge and try to find someone that wants to moderate its maintenance.  if the code is available and there is truly a need for the software, the author should be able to find one or more people that want to see if maintained into the future.

I think this is a false statement with little idea of what is behind a lot of specialized software packages and the difficulty one would have releasing in open source, packages that rely on specialized libraries that can't just publish those without licensing issues.  

THAT is what I am saying.

The suggestion that someone can quickly go out and create this type of software clearly is from somone who has not attempted to do so yet.

A lot of software gets dropped all the time. Good software, many times from big companies.  Few of them ever end up as open source packages when they die.  They just die.  Fact of life.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:06:53 AM by TNETWeather »
All you need is Time, Aptitude and Desire ... and you can build just about anything...

Offline TNETWeather

  • Kevin Reed (KrelvinAZ)
  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Davis Vantage Pro2+ with full FARS
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 12:05:53 AM »
Did you say Kevin is doing that?  :grin:

If you are talking about me?  I can't say I haven't considered it, I'm sure a lot of people have.  The farthest I ever got was some basic Perl code that read the data from the data logger and "almost" output similar data that something like VPLive does.  Hardly a full collection system.  I haven't touched it in years.

My focus has been pretty much the same since I started playing with weather, that being publishing of the data I can already get from collection systems and putting it on the web.  That's pretty much it.

BTW, I use both WD and Cumulus for weather collection, along with a number of other weather collection tools to publish my stations info on websites.   I think they are both great from two dedicated authors who have a good handle on what they are doing.   I rarely look at or play with the collection software itself other than GRLevel3 occasionally when we have thunderstorms in the area.  I get the rest of the weather data from the web.

I find it rather annoying the holy war between the two user bases.  Both authors offer good software and have spend tons of time adding to the software.
All you need is Time, Aptitude and Desire ... and you can build just about anything...

Offline Arthurhh

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • IT Fixer
    • Tokoroa Weather Live
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 02:10:14 AM »
Did you say Kevin is doing that?  :grin:

If you are talking about me?  I can't say I haven't considered it, I'm sure a lot of people have.  The farthest I ever got was some basic Perl code that read the data from the data logger and "almost" output similar data that something like VPLive does.  Hardly a full collection system.  I haven't touched it in years.

My focus has been pretty much the same since I started playing with weather, that being publishing of the data I can already get from collection systems and putting it on the web.  That's pretty much it.

BTW, I use both WD and Cumulus for weather collection, along with a number of other weather collection tools to publish my stations info on websites.   I think they are both great from two dedicated authors who have a good handle on what they are doing.   I rarely look at or play with the collection software itself other than GRLevel3 occasionally when we have thunderstorms in the area.  I get the rest of the weather data from the web.

I find it rather annoying the holy war between the two user bases.  Both authors offer good software and have spend tons of time adding to the software.

No holy war for me. I like WD but have to temper that with a dislike of the extent of things it does such as web cameras graphs and obscure data formats to store data.

What I would like to see is a Sourge Forge type dev which is just the basic stuff for the testtags/clientraw* typefiles none of the flash extras for which there are many good PD programs.  No Graphs No Web Cams No Page creator No FTP and so on. The basic files (provided the WD clintraw*/Testtags format was available) is well supported by web templates. (But maybe include CWOP WU and Aweka Twitter etc)

I started this thread here out of a genuine concern for the longer term future for PWS users, I choose this forum rather than Weather Watch so that it would get a even hearing rather than a have myself jumped on by a bunch of people who would percieve I was attacking WD and or its Author (Remember he is basically a neighbour of mine in the wide world of the internet living only a 100 or so Km up the road from me.)

Offline Arthurhh

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • IT Fixer
    • Tokoroa Weather Live
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 02:26:06 AM »
The "responsible" thing to do is, when you decide you've done all the damage you can with a package as popular as these, is to push it out onto SourceForge and try to find someone that wants to moderate its maintenance.  if the code is available and there is truly a need for the software, the author should be able to find one or more people that want to see if maintained into the future.

Nice idea but I can think of a number of reasons why that would not happen.  The most obvious would be licensing issues.
<AHH> indeed for WD that is an issue but only for the more exotic things it does not for the Basic PWS data functions.

Many packages use libraries that are licensed to the developer for use and distribution.   It is not uncommon for those licensed libraries to be non-transferable and some cases can be quite expensive and sometime not even available to to be licensed again (IE they are old).

Without those licensed libraries, whole sections of the resulting program may not even be available.

Then there is the issue of support.  Dumping code of what was a non-open source project may not have documentation of how it works with just code being code with your roadmap.  A larger application that has been developed for many years may be well understood by the author, and a complete unknown mess by anyone else. 

Without notes on how or where stuff is, it might not be worth someones time to get up to speed...

Even if is then distributed as "Free" it still costs time to work with it.

I in fact would oppose any idea that WD should be dumped into source forge as a thing. It is Brians he owns it and he is definately supporting it. But I do propose that as a comunity we should be looking at our exposure to single developer software (not just WD) and the impact that could hit us if anything happens to those single developers.
This is not about knocking WD off a perch, it will always be important to many as a turnkey (albiet with its own learning curve) program with support for a large number of station types and activities.

Offline DaculaWeather

  • WxElement panel
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3206
    • North Georgia Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 09:14:44 AM »
No, I understand what you're saying completely. You put all your eggs in one basket you could end up with nothing. Not that it's going to happen... but it sometimes does!


Offline Cynjut

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • Bellevue, NE local weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 01:24:03 PM »
I in fact would oppose any idea that WD should be dumped into source forge as a thing. It is Brian's he owns it and he is definitely supporting it. But I do propose that as a community we should be looking at our exposure to single developer software (not just WD) and the impact that could hit us if anything happens to those single developers.
This is not about knocking WD off a perch, it will always be important to many as a turn-key (albeit with its own learning curve) program with support for a large number of station types and activities.
The original point was "... once the company that developed the original software no longer wants to maintain it".  If Brian wants to keep supporting it and it's making him enough money that it's still a viable thing, then by all means he should keep on with it.  If, on the other hand, Brian decided that he'd had enough and wanted to stop supporting the software, MY OPINION is that he should take the source code to sourceforge and tell the world to "knock yourselves out."

This isn't magic - it's software.  Everything's complicated when you don't have the facts and there are PLENTY of success stories that say that open-source software works.  If he has trade secrets built into his code, then don't release that code.  If he uses non-redistributable libraries, then those need to be figured out some other way.  If he's happy with the status quo, then by all means keep at it.

The point isn't that I'm suggesting that anyone should be deprived of anything: quite to the contrary.  I'm not suggesting that anyone be forced to do anything, that anyone should even do anything that makes them sad.  As a community, people come to depend on software from vendors all the time.  When the vendor is done with it, they can do with it what they want. 

I'm not a weather guy - I just play one on the Internet.  On the other hand, I've been a software developer for almost 40 years, and it is my opinion (from many years of being dedicated to a vendor, only to have them screw me over completely by dropping all support and trash-canning software, forcing me to abandon hardware and processes that relied on that software) that the responsible thing to do WHEN GETTING OUT OF THE BUSINESS is to provide a path by which the people that have come to depend on you can forge on without you.  I understand that it's altruistic and high-minded, which appears to make some people uncomfortable, but it's not like I'm suggesting that people just give away their children.

If you are a software developer AND you've developed software that has a following AND you don't want to ever look at it again THEN and only then should you consider making anything available.  Obviously, you can't give away anything that isn't yours, and that needs to be taken into account.

While I'm up here, banging away on the lectern, let me suggest that many of these software projects could actually benefit from "a million eyes" looking at the code.  I've been a strong advocate for group development for a long time, and niche software (like weather system data loggers, for example) could usually stand to benefit from a fresh perspective and a different set of goals or concerns.  If one person is developing a software package they can't benefit from anyone else's experience or come to understand something that they didn't before. 

Once again, I'm not suggesting taking anything away from anyone.  If you are going to throw it away, then offer to someone to reuse and let them benefit from the challenge and the rest of the community benefit from a magnanimous gift.

Offline ctccbc

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Acurite 01035, Weather Display
    • Chris Collins Morehead City, NC Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 02:02:07 PM »
There is already software on SourceForge that supports several of the Oregon Scientific stations, including mine, that not only logs and store the data, but will publish to Weather Underground, CWOP, PWS Weather and Awekas, and support web/php templates called Weather Station Data Logger (WSDL). I use this software and it is very stable and the author, despite being busy with many other things, does a good job of keeping up with requests, updates, patches, etc.   Like someone said earlier, if the need arises, I'm sure somebody could take the ball and run with it.

Chris
moreheadcityweather.com

Offline SLOweather

  • Global Moderator
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3456
    • Weatherelement Moline IL
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 02:26:02 PM »

While I'm up here, banging away on the lectern, let me suggest that many of these software projects could actually benefit from "a million eyes" looking at the code.  I've been a strong advocate for group development for a long time, and niche software (like weather system data loggers, for example) could usually stand to benefit from a fresh perspective and a different set of goals or concerns.  If one person is developing a software package they can't benefit from anyone else's experience or come to understand something that they didn't before. 

Are you volunteering? Please let me know... :)

Offline ed2kayak

  • Ed
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Davis Vantage Pro2 w/12 hr FARS, solar/uv
    • Cumberland Valley Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 08:16:10 PM »
So when a software developer wants to retire, that's the end of the it? No ability to sell, or bring in a younger partner to train and allow to take over?. Similar to a regular business. The business model would have to be viable financially, or is it just a hobby to the 10th degree? Maybe Google will want a piece.LOL
Ed
CoCoRaHS PA-CD-6,  Weather Underground KPAMECHA7, CWOP DW5425

Offline neondesert

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
    • http://www.neondesertweather.com
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 10:37:04 PM »
Barring some sort of freak disaster that only kills off only weather software
developers, I really don't think we have too much to worry about here.  ;)

Here is a thought for those that like to worry though...
Davis Instruments develops the WeatherLink software AND very popular hardware. 
Now if they were to go belly up, then you would hear some crying and gnashing of teeth!  :-({|=
Larry
"But it's a DRY Heat!"


Offline Arthurhh

  • Senior Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • IT Fixer
    • Tokoroa Weather Live
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 04:12:41 AM »
Barring some sort of freak disaster that only kills off only weather software
developers, I really don't think we have too much to worry about here.  ;)

Here is a thought for those that like to worry though...
Davis Instruments develops the WeatherLink software AND very popular hardware. 
Now if they were to go belly up, then you would hear some crying and gnashing of teeth!  :-({|=

The issue is actually that WD is pre eminent and used by a significant user base. If an accident took out the Author there would be a big hole.

Offline neondesert

  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
    • http://www.neondesertweather.com
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2011, 11:38:31 AM »
The issue is actually that WD is pre eminent and used by a significant user base. If an accident took out the Author there would be a big hole.

That may be the case, and while no one wishes any bad will towards any software author that hole would be filled by other software.
It would not be the first time that something similar has happened in the tech industry.

Ask yourself this...if WD did stop development, would that mean the end of of your hobby?  Would you no longer maintain a weather website?
Most likely you would find a replacement...the show must go on!
Larry
"But it's a DRY Heat!"


Offline Bashy

  • brecklandweather.com/meteo
  • Forecaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1465
  • brecklandweather.com/index.php
    • Breckland Weather
Re: What happens when a specialised software stops being developed
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 06:34:35 PM »
Not making much sense really....

If (God forbid) something did happen to "an author" surely that software would not stop
working, if your using said software at present then obviously its working ok for you, so im
a little baffled as to where this is going, I use WD and always will, whether it's maintained
or not, Im not saying this to praise the software, im saying it because i like it and it works
well for me. If Brian stopped for any reason it certainly would not mean i would stop using the
software.
Kind regards
Bashy

 

anything