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Weather Station Hardware => Ambient Weather and Ecowitt and other Fine Offset clones => Topic started by: madkiwi on November 08, 2018, 01:07:58 AM
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Just set up my new weather station today. The sensor array is approximately 130 feet from the base unit. Unfortunately not clear line of sight, probably about 3 walls between them.
However after I set up the array powered up the base station it connected in less than a minute. So I thought it was good, and after setting up the wifi and verifying that it was connected to ambientweather.net I took off (this is at a 2nd home).
But after getting home I downloaded the Ambient Weather app and none of the outdoor stuff showed up. Just the indoor temp, humidity and barometric pressure. The website (and app) show data was received between 5:35 pm and 5:55 pm, then nothing more until 8:35 pm, but it stopped at 8:45. Just started showing data again now (10:35pm Mountain). Very intermittent.
Should I try re-locating the base station? I didn't realize that I needed batteries and while I had AAs for the sensor at the house I didn't have any AAA sized ones for the base station. So currently it's just powered from the DC adapter. That shouldn't affect the receiver range, right? Also it was set up with the sun just setting so the solar panel received no power after taking it out of the box. Could that affect transmission range?
Finally, is it just me or is it impossible to set up alerts in the Android version of the app? I tried 3 times, nothing appears. Did it easily on the website.
Thanks!
Mark
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Yes you need to get them closer together. Max real-world distance is about 100'. Your setup sounds like you need them even closer than that.
You don't need the batteries for the console, but they are nice when the power goes out. Use Energizer Lithium batteries instead of alkalines.
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I had issues with my ws-2000 at about 90' with clear line of site. Moved the array to about 30' and no more issues.
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These stories of poor reception are very helpful to those of us shopping these stations.
<100 feet is horrible reception. In many cases, it's hard to even site the station properly with range that poor. I guess you could mount it to the roof of the house but otherwise how are you supposed to even locate in an area free of the effects of the structure? Just awful.
This is the ONLY thing that has prevented me from ordering an Ambient station.
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I believe I may have underestimated the hard barriers between the station and the sensor.
I have the base station currently sitting on a counter on the southwest corner of our kitchen. The sensor is 130 feet to the northwest. So the wall behind the sensor, then a gas furnace, a solid door (for muffling the furnace noise), an exterior wall, and another exterior wall (through my workshop) then through the garage and its exterior wall.
If you count the utility closet door as a wall and the furnace as one, that's 6 barriers.
Maybe I'm lucky to even get sporadic reception...
When I get there today I will move the base to the northeast window of the kitchen. It will add about 10 feet, but be close enough to zero barriers.
I can't put the sensor closer to the base/house as our home is very tall (28' at the west end) with a wooded area to the east (home is on a river and is built right up to the riparian zone). We have grazing land to the west (formerly a ranch) so that's where the sensor has to go, unless I mount it on the roof. Our prevailing wind comes out of the west and south, occasionally weather out of Canada can cause winds from the north to northeast. Anything out of the east is just going to be wildly inaccurate on the sensor, most of those trees by the river are in the 70-100 foot range.
Will report back.
Mark
PS Anyone have a comment on Alerts? I tried again to create one on the app, after setting condition and parameters I click create and nothing happens. Works fine on the web interface. Also hitting back to exit the app only works about 75% of the time. I sometimes have to hit the Home button or Recent and close the app there (Galaxy s7 Android 8.0.0).
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I've got 2 alerts that I've created in the Android app. One for not reporting for 20 minutes and a temperature alert. Both work fine via sms.
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So I tried to move the base to the kitchen window, but when I peered through the window towards the sensor array the corner of my workshop blocked my view. Sure enough after 5 minutes it was disconnected.
I took the base station upstairs, the master bedroom is at the front of the house. Found a good spot, and now it is about 87 feet from the array, with 3-4 bars on the signal. Data transmissions to Ambient and to WU have been consistent since.
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Probably as good a spot as any, maybe I will try moving it once we move there.
Thanks,
Mark
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Looks like you got it cracked :grin:
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These stories of poor reception are very helpful to those of us shopping these stations.
<100 feet is horrible reception. In many cases, it's hard to even site the station properly with range that poor. I guess you could mount it to the roof of the house but otherwise how are you supposed to even locate in an area free of the effects of the structure? Just awful.
This is the ONLY thing that has prevented me from ordering an Ambient station.
Wow These stations are sad , I have a crappy lacrosse that's at 115 Feet approx. just keeps chugging along and my 5n1 is a solid 100'
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Yes I have 2 of the WS-2902-Arrays (bought one to couple with an older ObserverIP module and one came with the WW-2000 kit). I have had nothing but connection problems with the one array and the ObserverIP module The Array is literally right on top of the ObserverIP, 20 ft above on the roof. there is sheet rock, attic, the a metal roof between. I has dropped constantly since I set it up 7 days ago. This Array replaced an older WS-1400-IP array that has been rock solid for 2 years with the same ObserverIP. Very disappointed.
And today, I woke up both arrays (the one at my office with the ObserverIP AND the one at my house with the WS-2000 kit) ... both were not disconnected from the base stations. I have tinkered with both ALL DAY. Got the one at home to finally work again. But the one at the office with the ObserverIP, well even after repositioning the receiver, it still is intermittent and DOA right now.
](*,)
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I think it is a good thing it uses 915 MHz as that frequency cuts through man-made barriers better than 433 MHz. I remember reading YEARS ago police and security in metro areas like 900 MHz on their walkie talkies in buildings for this reason. I can attest to this as my WS-1080, WS-2080, and WS-2095 would lose their reception of the signal every once in awhile at 433 MHz. My WS-2902A is installed in the EXACT same position and it shows 5 bars all the time. It hasn't lost its signal yet. Mine is about 50' away going through one wall with aluminum siding on the house.
Davis weather station consoles all seem to have their antennas on the outside of the console while the Fine Offset stations have a internal wire antenna. This probably explains why Davis claims 1000' line of sight. Didn't the earlier WS-2092 (non-A) claim 400' line of sight on the back of the box?
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I can attest to this as my WS-1080, WS-2080, and WS-2095 would lose their reception of the signal every once in awhile at 433 MHz. My WS-2902A is installed in the EXACT same position and it shows 5 bars all the time. It hasn't lost its signal yet. Mine is about 50' away going through one wall with aluminum siding on the house.
I have not been so luck with my WS-2902-array (same array as the WS-2902a system). Since I actually have another ObserverIP in another location, my next test will be to try that receiver and see if the array stays locked. If not, I may order a 2902 console and see how many bars I am getting, but I suspect at that point I will be ready to blame it on a faulty array.
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All things equal the lower the frequency the better wall penetration and distance.That is why cell phone companies like Verizon and AT&T paid more at wireless FCC auctions for lower premium frequencies. But frequency alone is not a determining factor. There are many other variables which means you can't just compare a 433 MHz device with a 915 MHz without knowing how the other factors relate. For example there is transmission power, antenna design, beam forming technology, noise mitigating technology, extraneous interference, bandwidth use...and much more.
Acurite claims 433 MHz is better:
https://www.acurite.com/learn/installation/wireless-signal-range
Another example where lower frequency is better is 2.4 GHz versus 5 GHz WiFi. Sure 5 GHz is faster mostly because of wider channel bandwidth size, but 2.4 GHz has better wall penetration and better range. The greater 5 GHz speed drops quickly by increased distance to the point that at greater distance the 2.4 GHz performs better and is faster. Which is why I set my 2.4 and 5 GHz WiFi signals to be the same SSID and that way the device can choose at that given distance if 2.4 or 5 GHz is better and it will switch automatically.
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I have no preference on the frequency of the weather station. I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it. Maybe Fine Offset has a better antenna setup on 915 MHz than they do on 433 MHz. I am just happy I have 5 bars and no signal loss with the WS-2902A at 915 MHz vs. occasional signal loss with my previous 433 MHz weather stations.
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I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it.
That is true if you are running spread spectrum. Otherwise you're under the same power restrictions.
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I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it.
That is true if you are running spread spectrum. Otherwise you're under the same power restrictions.
I'm curious how Davis achieves 1000' when everyone else struggles to get much over 100' range?
Is it simply a matter of better radios and throwing more $'s into the RF design? Does running spread spectrum increase range or just bandwidth?
What's Davis's secret to 1000'?
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I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it.
That is true if you are running spread spectrum. Otherwise you're under the same power restrictions.
I'm curious how Davis achieves 1000' when everyone else struggles to get much over 100' range?
Is it simply a matter of better radios and throwing more $'s into the RF design? Does running spread spectrum increase range or just bandwidth?
What's Davis's secret to 1000'?
Spread spectrum techniques (e.g. frequency hopping). If you do that, the FCC will let you use more power in the 915MHz range.
Acurite's Atlas Elite will be doing the same.
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I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it.
That is true if you are running spread spectrum. Otherwise you're under the same power restrictions.
I'm curious how Davis achieves 1000' when everyone else struggles to get much over 100' range?
Is it simply a matter of better radios and throwing more $'s into the RF design? Does running spread spectrum increase range or just bandwidth?
What's Davis's secret to 1000'?
Spread spectrum techniques (e.g. frequency hopping). If you do that, the FCC will let you use more power in the 915MHz range.
Acurite's Atlas Elite will be doing the same.
Thanks, I assume that implementing that technology is a significant cost adder?
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I am thinking 915 MHz is allowed more broadcast/output power than 433 MHz here in the USA by law so maybe that is why I am getting better performance with it.
That is true if you are running spread spectrum. Otherwise you're under the same power restrictions.
I'm curious how Davis achieves 1000' when everyone else struggles to get much over 100' range?
Is it simply a matter of better radios and throwing more $'s into the RF design? Does running spread spectrum increase range or just bandwidth?
What's Davis's secret to 1000'?
Spread spectrum techniques (e.g. frequency hopping). If you do that, the FCC will let you use more power in the 915MHz range.
Acurite's Atlas Elite will be doing the same.
Thanks, I assume that implementing that technology is a significant cost adder?
It's definitely more complex than just transmitting on a single frequency. For example, the transmitter and receiver have to get themselves synchronized and then follow the same hopping pattern.
This link has some interesting information and blog entries about decoding the Davis signals: https://github.com/dekay/DavisRFM69/wiki/RF-Protocol
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I've been noticing reception issues, early in the morning. I lose reception for upwards of an hour. Only about 60' between the units. It's strange.
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I've been noticing reception issues, early in the morning. I lose reception for upwards of an hour. Only about 60' between the units. It's strange.
What has the humidity been before and after signal loss?
And does it only happen on calm windless mornings?
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Humidity is in the 90s, but it had been like that most of the night.
But yes, clear calm morning. Temp was in the upper 20s F at the time.
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So if it's not the batteries at the tail end of the prior day's solar charge, something that occurred to me a minute ago, then it may possibly relate to the radio signal strength showing the impact of a signal loss due to high humidity and being near the fringe of the broadcast range. Just spit balling here.
I know it's a different situation, but we have a couple of solar powered lights on our kitchen porch and how long they stay illuminated varies a good little bit depending on how much sun or clouds we see during the day, but they never last more than 4 of 5 hours, at least in the winter hours since I installed them last month.
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Good point on the lights. Keep an eye out for LED lights, especially near the display unit. It's been mentioned that some LED lights are not that well shielded for RF noise. Some will cause issues with the 433MHz and 915MHz frequencies. Garage door opener companies, which use the same freqs, now offer garage door "safe" LED lights.
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It could be your 'smart' meter. Utility companies have incorporated a wireless way to read your electric meter. It's in the 900Mhz frequency range. They output a full watt of power. While working for an electric company, part of my job was testing these things for radiation issues. I discovered they burned out motion detector lights near them, like within 10' or so. The company was replacing lights for customers like popcorn until they finally got the meter company to swap them out.
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Interesting. I do have a smart meter, and I've also had to replace a motion sensor light twice that's near it.
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Do a google search on the topic of smart meter RF and it's pretty eye opening. I worked as a telecommunications tech for an electric company, I tested these things prior to our company buying into them and they are incredibly powerful and 'chatty'. A brief explanation on how they work; every meter can transmit and receive. They 'talk' to the closest meter to them, sending their data to neighbor meters and relaying data they receive from your neighbors meters. Eventually, the data is relayed enough from house to house until it gets to a station that has wire or fiber. From there it's sent to the main processing center. Each transmission is only a few milliseconds long. All total, maybe a few minutes every day in transmission, but several micro transmissions every second. If you put a specrum analyzer near one, watched the activity, you'd see a screen of spikes being transmitted. The frequency is 902 to 928mhz as I recall. It's frequency hopping so who knows what frequency at what millisecond is being transmitted.
Some people who have their bedroom, perhaps even their headboard from their bed right backed up to where their meter is complain of several symptoms of poor health. When the meter's radio is turned off, their symptoms went away. By federal law, customers have a right to opt out of wireless meters for wired; DSL for example, or even an old fashioned meter reader. But if you have 'time-of-use' billing, that can be complicated.
Many cell phones are on this same frequency band as well. I don't know if that could be an issue if your weather station is near a tower.
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I'm a firm believer that the core issue is the transmitter in the osprey sensor suite. It's not as good as the one in the observer sensor suite.
My testing and diagnosis of this:
I have a WS1002 - Take apart the sensor and you'll see a physical coiled antenna. I have NEVER had reception issues with my WS1002.
WS2902/WS2000 - Take apart the sensor and there is no physical coiled antenna. The antenna seems only to be a square solder pad labeled ANT2 with no physical antenna wire or coil attached to it. Interestingly, I could not find an ANT1 label on the board, so I assumed ANT2 was the primary antenna connection. My WS2902/2000 display mounted in the exact same location as the WS1002 display constantly had reception issues from the sensor array. The osprey array mounted in the exact same location as the observer array.
My solution was to solder a quarter wave antenna wire onto the ANT2 pad of the osprey unit, drill a hole directly above the pad in the plastic cover to pass the wire out of, then seal the hole for moisture barrier. The length for a quarter wave 915 MHz antenna is 3 inches.
While this antenna mod has made it so the WS2902/WS2000 display will "work" in the same location that the WS1002 array was, it still seems to lose some packets every now and again, so it's not perfect. I may still increase the antenna length to half or full wave. It's quite possible the transmitter itself in the osprey array is less powerful than the observer array, I don't have the test equipment required to confirm this.
EDIT: correction - osprey sensor array DOES have a coil antenna - see pics below of board.
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Please post photos if you took any and label them.
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Please post photos if you took any and label them.
I didn't. But, if you remove the bottom black cover from the osprey sensor suite, you'll clearly see a gold solder pad labeled ANT2
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WS2902/WS2000 - Take apart the sensor and there is no physical coiled antenna. The antenna seems only to be a square solder pad labeled ANT2 with no physical antenna wire or coil attached to it. Interestingly, I could not find an ANT1 label on the board, so I assumed ANT2 was the primary antenna connection. My WS2902/2000 display mounted in the exact same location as the WS1002 display constantly had reception issues from the sensor array. The osprey array mounted in the exact same location as the observer array.
Dan - So you have both the WS-2902A and the WS-2000? Exactly which one did you take apart?
The OP is concerning the WS-2902A, which is Fine Offset's FCC ID WA5WH65BV1 (https://fccid.io/WA5WH65BV1). From its filings with the FCC, you can see that the bottom of the PCB has no coil, but that the top of it does.
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Bottom view
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Top view
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I took apart the sensor array, not the display
The 2902a and the 2000 use the same osprey array
The obverse side of that board is interesting. I didnt see a coil on mine. Granted, I didnt remove the entire board, just looked underneath it casually.
So ANT1 would be on the opposite side as ANT2 pads
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I'll solder onto where that coil is. I have a 915 mhz yagi I can try too.
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I didnt see a coil on mine. Granted, I didnt remove the entire board, just looked underneath it casually.
I'm not surprised that you didn't see the coil antenna since you were looking in the wrong place.
Should you dismantle your sensor array again, you might want to look on the top of the PCB as that's where the coil is supposed to be on Fine Offset's FCC ID WA5WH65BV1; i.e., WS-2902A, if you happen to actually have that specific sensor array.
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I didnt see a coil on mine. Granted, I didnt remove the entire board, just looked underneath it casually.
...... WS-2902A, if you happen to actually have that specific sensor array.
Boy I sure hope I do, seeing how I have 2 2902a's and a 2000, among other various Ambient units....
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Do a google search on the topic of smart meter RF and it's pretty eye opening. I worked as a telecommunications tech for an electric company, I tested these things prior to our company buying into them and they are incredibly powerful and 'chatty'. A brief explanation on how they work; every meter can transmit and receive. They 'talk' to the closest meter to them, sending their data to neighbor meters and relaying data they receive from your neighbors meters. Eventually, the data is relayed enough from house to house until it gets to a station that has wire or fiber. From there it's sent to the main processing center. Each transmission is only a few milliseconds long. All total, maybe a few minutes every day in transmission, but several micro transmissions every second. If you put a specrum analyzer near one, watched the activity, you'd see a screen of spikes being transmitted. The frequency is 902 to 928mhz as I recall. It's frequency hopping so who knows what frequency at what millisecond is being transmitted.
Some people who have their bedroom, perhaps even their headboard from their bed right backed up to where their meter is complain of several symptoms of poor health. When the meter's radio is turned off, their symptoms went away. By federal law, customers have a right to opt out of wireless meters for wired; DSL for example, or even an old fashioned meter reader. But if you have 'time-of-use' billing, that can be complicated.
Many cell phones are on this same frequency band as well. I don't know if that could be an issue if your weather station is near a tower.
(per highlighted items above:)
My local electric company (a co-op) is in the process of switching to 'smart meters', they now have a whole web page up about 'truths, facts, and myths' about smart meters, it avoids your technical details.
One of my daughters got an apartment near her new job after graduating from university. Her bedroom wall, where her headboard was, had all the electric meters for her whole building mounted on the outside of it; I don't know if they were smartmeters (this was about 10 years ago). I took one look at that and began asking her to change apartments, but she stayed there for a while. Not sure if she or her dog had any more health problems than usual.
Legally, federal law requires that you you are allowed to "opt out" of having a smartmeter on your electrical service. However, the power company makes it quite expensive to do that. Mine charges a $225 fee to change your meter, and a $25 per month "meter reading" fee (if you haven't been upgraded to a smartmeter yet there is no "changeout" charge); there are also various onerous conditions to be met by the customer. That $25/mo charge could be a significant amount of a fairly low-usage customer's bill.
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Excellent!! Ws2902 does have coil antenna. I'll solder onto that point.
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Soldered yagi feed line onto the correct antenna point (see photos above of board), makes a world of difference - go figure lol.
No dropped packets, signal staying full 5 bars now. Granted, this is probably a worse-case scenario - about 180' from the display, through exterior wall and 2 interior walls.
Before I waterproofed it all:
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You may be able to pick up a signal from the next state with that set up
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That yagi probably violates FCC licensing for ERP. For those who may not understand yagi antennas, it focuses the transmit signal to a specific direction, increasing the effective radiated power (ERP) Imagine a light bulb lit in a field, now imagine the light bulb focused like a flash light. Same power bulb, but now the energy directed at one specific point.
Anyone 'down stream' of that yagi could experience interference of that focused energy.
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Soldered yagi feed line onto the correct antenna point (see photos above of board), makes a world of difference - go figure lol.
Out of curiosity, where did you solder the outer braid on the coax? Was there an obvious place to put it or did you find a ground for it?
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That yagi probably violates FCC licensing for ERP. For those who may not understand yagi antennas, it focuses the transmit signal to a specific direction, increasing the effective radiated power (ERP) Imagine a light bulb lit in a field, now imagine the light bulb focused like a flash light. Same power bulb, but now the energy directed at one specific point.
Anyone 'down stream' of that yagi could experience interference of that focused energy.
First let me say that I'm not really knowledgeable about this kind of thing. But I did notice this.
http://www.clippercontrols.com/content/TechTalk-FCC_Rules_for_License_Free_Wireless.pdf
And I believe this is the antenna that danoh is using.
https://www.amazon.com/Phonetone-Outdoor-Directional-Antenna-Connector/dp/B00EC804SO
The gain for this antenna is 7/9 dbi which is more than the 6 dbi allowed. But I don't think that the WH65B sensor array transmits at anything like the 1 watt allowed. I guess I would be surprised if he ever had any trouble with this configuration. Again, I'm no expert on this. :-)
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Soldered yagi feed line onto the correct antenna point (see photos above of board), makes a world of difference - go figure lol.
Out of curiosity, where did you solder the outer braid on the coax? Was there an obvious place to put it or did you find a ground for it?
Found a ground pad on the board with multimeter and used that. There wasn't an obvious place, as the built-in coil antenna is only a coiled wire.
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That yagi probably violates FCC licensing for ERP. For those who may not understand yagi antennas, it focuses the transmit signal to a specific direction, increasing the effective radiated power (ERP) Imagine a light bulb lit in a field, now imagine the light bulb focused like a flash light. Same power bulb, but now the energy directed at one specific point.
Anyone 'down stream' of that yagi could experience interference of that focused energy.
First let me say that I'm not really knowledgeable about this kind of thing. But I did notice this.
http://www.clippercontrols.com/content/TechTalk-FCC_Rules_for_License_Free_Wireless.pdf
And I believe this is the antenna that danoh is using.
https://www.amazon.com/Phonetone-Outdoor-Directional-Antenna-Connector/dp/B00EC804SO
The gain for this antenna is 7/9 dbi which is more than the 6 dbi allowed. But I don't think that the WH65B sensor array transmits at anything like the 1 watt allowed. I guess I would be surprised if he ever had any trouble with this configuration. Again, I'm no expert on this. :-)
That's the antenna. I was trying to find a link, thanks.
The sensor array isn't near close to a watt, that I would bet on, with it's dismal range. If I had to guess, I'd say it's in the 100 mW range, IF that
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You may be able to pick up a signal from the next state with that set up
It doesn't receive, and it has a down tilt. :lol: Figured I'd down tilt it to point at the house, not over the house. The signal would be more focused where I wanted it, and to lessen the oddball chance of interfering with another 915 MHz display that (unlikely) could be in the path.
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Did you experiment orienting the antenna to horizontal polarization? I imagine it's vertical, but who knows? The factory radiated element is a coil and I have no idea what the radiation pattern would look like.
I would tend to agree the TX is no where near 1 watt as well. 100mw I would agree is probably more like it.
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Did you experiment orienting the antenna to horizontal polarization? I imagine it's vertical, but who knows? The factory radiated element is a coil and I have no idea what the radiation pattern would look like.
I would tend to agree the TX is no where near 1 watt as well. 100mw I would agree is probably more like it.
I didn't mess with polarization. I installed vertical because the physical 1/4 wave straight wire antenna that's in the display units are vertical in relation to how you would normally view the display.
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That yagi probably violates FCC licensing for ERP. For those who may not understand yagi antennas, it focuses the transmit signal to a specific direction, increasing the effective radiated power (ERP) Imagine a light bulb lit in a field, now imagine the light bulb focused like a flash light. Same power bulb, but now the energy directed at one specific point.
Anyone 'down stream' of that yagi could experience interference of that focused energy.
Does the power consumption remain the same?
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And I believe this is the antenna that danoh is using.
https://www.amazon.com/Phonetone-Outdoor-Directional-Antenna-Connector/dp/B00EC804SO
The gain for this antenna is 7/9 dbi which is more than the 6 dbi allowed. But I don't think that the WH65B sensor array transmits at anything like the 1 watt allowed. I guess I would be surprised if he ever had any trouble with this configuration. Again, I'm no expert on this. :-)
That's the antenna. I was trying to find a link, thanks.
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Full report: https://fccid.io/WA5WH65BV1/Test-Report/RF-Test-Report-3627169
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That yagi probably violates FCC licensing for ERP. For those who may not understand yagi antennas, it focuses the transmit signal to a specific direction, increasing the effective radiated power (ERP) Imagine a light bulb lit in a field, now imagine the light bulb focused like a flash light. Same power bulb, but now the energy directed at one specific point.
Anyone 'down stream' of that yagi could experience interference of that focused energy.
Does the power consumption remain the same?
Yes, power consumption remains the same. A quick understanding of antenna radiation pattern;
Imagine an antenna that is oriented vertically. The RF energy coming off this antenna looks like a big fat donut out in the near field of air around it. If your antenna is on the roof, above your receiver inside, you can see that the antenna's energy is not directed straight down. No, that's the 'hole' in the donut; straight down and straight up. By tipping the antenna 90 degrees, the radiation pattern now looks like a donut standing on edge. A lot of power going straight down now.
Another way to increase range on an antenna is by 'squishing' the donut radiation pattern. Imagine taking that donut and pressing on it. The energy tilted up into space and down into the earth is now forced further along the horizontal plane. While the total power consumed remains the same, the distance from the antenna increases for reception as more of the energy is in a useful direction.
There are other ways to increase effective radiated power, which is where the yagi antenna comes in. A yagi takes that donut shape and reflects what is going the wrong direction back towards the right direction. Still the same amount of power consumed but now that energy is directed, like a light with a reflector sorta like a flash light, in a useful direction.
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Thanks for the great description/ visualization.
Mark's original issue had me thinking about making a corner reflector, and further, suggesting to Ed that the antenna be relocated to the underside of the array (as originally suggested by Mark's brother), and adding a rotating corner reflector that could be directed towards the user's display console.
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Question first then back story:
Instead of giant Yagi, would it be possible to add another coiled antenna or simple wire antenna to the 'ant2' pad? Will the two interfere? The ant2 has two pads, would a coiled 1/4 wave even work? Which pad would you solder to?
One possible very simple solution would be to flip the board over so the antenna is on bottom... A well placed hole and some creative plastic transplant/welding may be in order to keep things water tight.
Thanks!
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Back story:
When I received my array and IP receiver I did not know about the reception issues. After initial unboxing I had the receiver hanging in the middle of my house, second story (coiled antenna pretty much horizontal, 7ft high) and then took the array outside looking for a good mounting point. To avoid trees and structures I decided to pole mounting to the top of my single story barn. I left the array sitting in the back of a golf cart for a few days to make sure it would work. I purposefully left it an additional 10-12ft further away just to make sure... I had no signal loss for over a week, WITH alkaline batteries, freezing temperatures, rain, frost etc.
I finally mounted the array to a galvanized pole above the barn. The final height put it 3ft-4 below the receiver and around 235 ft away. I lost connectivity. I went back out and took the array off of the mount and I regained signal. Holding the array in my hand at installed height, things seemed to work but when I put it on the pole, nothing.
I contacted tech support and they gave me the lithium battery/other device interference BS. I changed the batteries and nothing. I finally moved the IP receiver to an exterior wall, in a window, 225 ft away, same height, hanging again so antenna horizontal. With this setup I would have data for a few days then nothing for a few. At one point I had data for 15 days straight.
I contacted tech support again they refused to send a new receiver but did send a new array.
Once the array did arrive, I added a 1ft PVC conduit extension to the pole before swapping the new array over, just in case that really was the issue... No real difference. I would have data for a few days then nothing. Finally I tried taping the receiver to the window so the antenna was oriented vertically. YAHTZEE! I ended up buying a suction cup tray from amazon and have had no data drop out since, fingers crossed.
Aside from low transmitter power, I believe my issues are due to signal combing and antenna placement.
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ANT2 pads didn't do much for me, use the actual antenna coil connecting point on the other side of the board
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Antenna coming out of the bottom is an idea that has been mentioned before. I think it is a good idea to more easily make water tight. I haven't seen anyone pull it off yet...no reports. As for ANT2 connection it might work, but do a PCB line trace to be sure. You can try a continuity test with a multimeter if you can't visibly follow the trace. While you are at it get some more photos of the PCB and get both sides and share them.
This is the only other thread with pictures that I remember seeing and they are a bit blurry. Still no shot of the other side.
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=35893.0
EDIT: found this other link with pictures in this thread. Based on these pictures the coiled antenna is on the opposite side of ANT2 so that's not promising that they are the same:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=35470.msg366703#msg366703
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The Osprey is sold in many countries and some have different types of radios in them. I am wondering if the ant2 is for a different radio type and is not actually used in the US units. I noticed that there are numerous components missing from the PCB in that area.
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Just installed 2902A two days ago on roof, 2-by wood construction.
In order to debug my reception/signal strength problem, it would help to have
a clearer measurement of "signal strength".
the console display "5 bars" seems only to be an indication of how long ago a successful update occurred (based on display timeout expectations),
i.e., 5 bars= within the last 16 seconds; 4--> 32 seconds ago, 3--> 48; 2--> 64; 1--> 80 seconds
This doesn't really speak to how many timeouts there have been, say, over the last hour (it could have been
perfect except for the last 1.5 minutes; or it could have been out for hours... if there are zero bars).
It doesn't represent the legitimate signal strength, rather a misleading counter of timeouts.
I assume it's a digital packet transmitted, but surely they have ECC error code correction?
The support person admitted that the manual does not describe this well, and sadly was unable to offer any further details.
It's particularly worrisome during rain, when dipper counts are missed, other stats are less critical in that respect.
The labeling in the manual would be helpful to refer to this as RF signal loss occurrences, not to be confused with Wireless Wi-Fi.
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I was wondering, how can I increase the range at the console? I usually lose about 30% of my packets and want to increase the range. But, I don't want to screw with the actual weather station, I just want to add an antenna or something on the console
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I was looking back through older threads and wanted to add a comment on this one. I have been running a WS-1401IP station for 2+ years. First, humidity sensor failed and then connectivity with ObserverIP became intermittent. The connection was actually good at night but not during the day (because it was running on batteries and not solar panel?) I considered just replacing the sensor array with WS-2902 but after reading about the WS-2000 system I decided to go for the whole package (which uses the WS-2902 Array).
The connection from the WS-2902 to both the display console WS-2000 and to the ObserverIP (not needed for WS-2000 but I am using for temporary tests) is great. The sensor is mounted on a 10' metal pole bolted to wooden fencepost in the middle of a barren field. A couple trees near the house but clear line of site to the console and to the ObserverIP. The measured distance on Google Earth is 430'. Display is not showing dropped packets ("signal strength" display) and the graphs on Ambient Weather dashboard show continuous data with no holes.
I know this is an optimal configuration - no walls, no water, no LED's, etc. but I wanted to share with groups since my mileage is different from what I see on this thread. It is a recent purchase/install so possibly hardware/QC improvements? or firmware fixes? But so far, after two weeks, I am pleased with connection and performance with WS-2000 and WS-2902 Array.
Hope this helps.
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@MeadowlarkField can you confirm which array you have?
I noticed the Ecowitt page sells a two-sided array while the 2902A pictured on Ambient's site is three sided.
I wonder if there is any difference in performance between these variations?
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There is no difference between the two sided and the 3 sided array sensor as far as sensor performance. The difference is in how the two sided may do better in the snow because there is less chance for snow built up. The anemometer end is little bit thinner on the two sided version.
But be forewarned that the two sided is only available through Ecowitt. This means that you end up with an Ecowitt sensor and therefore you then only can have Ecowitt consoles. The Ambient console may appeal to people interested in uploading to Ambientweather.net instead of to Ecowitt.net. Although the two are very similar, for now only Ambientweather.net has an API that several services and applications that are possible because of it.
Some of the Ambientweather.net API extra features are:
- Amazon Alexa
- Google Assistant
- Some mobile apps
- Weather templates that pull data from this
- Weather-Display software can use it as a data source
- various other ideas out there that I've probably not stumbled on that use it as a data source
The Ecowitt.net service though I think looks nicer with its dark theme and extra high/low graph stuff and a world map to see other Ecowitt stations. Ecowitt said that they are working on their own API but it will be a long time before it is available. Even then we don't know if it will be 100% compatible with the software and solutions that are already available with Ambientweather.net.
The bottom line is this....If you have an Ambient Sensor you can have both an Ambient console and an Ecowitt console. I have both so I can publish data to both Ambientweather.net and Ecowiit.net from each respective console using the same outdoor sensor array. I started with an Ambient station and added just the Ecowitt GW1000 console.....I could add another Ecowitt console if I wanted like an HP3500 which looks interesting.
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The sensor array I am using is the WS-2902 from Ambient Weather with three sides ( https://www.ambientweather.com/amws2902array.html ) The arm with the wind direction sensor points nearly directly at the console (if we are thinking about propagation patterns.)
Hope this helps.
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I would like to add to my prior comment where I said Ecowitt console will not upload to Ambientweather.net. There is a work-around to get an Ecowitt or other Fine Offset clone that is not Ambient console to upload to Ambientweather.net. The way to accomplish this is to use a Meteobridge with Ambientweather.net license ($150 add-on)...or to use a WeatherBridge which already has this license as that is Ambient's version of the Meteobridge. The Meteobridge will not connect directly to any Ecowitt console. You'll need a GW1000 (or you can also use an ObserverIP but not recommended) to send data to the Meteobridge (or to a WeatherBridge). Doing this gets you an Ecowitt station and console with the ability to send to both Ecowitt and Ambientweather.net. I'm just mentioning this for completeness of my prior statement on this thread.
* UPDATE - March 2020 - Ambientweather.net license for Meteobridge has new lower price, now just $100
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I just wanted to share reception issues and a resolution I’ve had. About 1 month ago my WS-2902A started missing a lot of packets and eventually the receiver was seeing nothing. This was after about 1.5 years of no noticeable reception issues at all. Re-locating the receiver helped but was too inconvenient a location for me. So I followed danoh and other’s lead and wired in a Yagi antenna. I first opened up the array and noticed how tiny the antenna is. Not a coil but a 1 cm wire. That seems pitiful. It might have been enough to replace that with a small coil but I didn’t have one and I already had the Yagi. I was able to use the unused ground pad from ANT 2 and removed the original antenna altogether. It was a tedious job but it will now penetrate my entire house and a brick wall from 100 ft out so I’m happy.
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Awesome! Thinking of doing something like this soon as well.
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I just wanted to share reception issues and a resolution I’ve had. About 1 month ago my WS-2902A started missing a lot of packets and eventually the receiver was seeing nothing. This was after about 1.5 years of no noticeable reception issues at all. Re-locating the receiver helped but was too inconvenient a location for me. So I followed danoh and other’s lead and wired in a Yagi antenna. I first opened up the array and noticed how tiny the antenna is. Not a coil but a 1 cm wire. That seems pitiful. It might have been enough to replace that with a small coil but I didn’t have one and I already had the Yagi. I was able to use the unused ground pad from ANT 2 and removed the original antenna altogether. It was a tedious job but it will now penetrate my entire house and a brick wall from 100 ft out so I’m happy.
Thank you for a very interesting post. Your picture of the antenna reminded me of something I've seen on Ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/915Mhz-Antenna-2dBi/171877270861
I wonder how much something like this would help.
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I just wanted to share reception issues and a resolution I’ve had. About 1 month ago my WS-2902A started missing a lot of packets and eventually the receiver was seeing nothing. This was after about 1.5 years of no noticeable reception issues at all. Re-locating the receiver helped but was too inconvenient a location for me. So I followed danoh and other’s lead and wired in a Yagi antenna. I first opened up the array and noticed how tiny the antenna is. Not a coil but a 1 cm wire. That seems pitiful. It might have been enough to replace that with a small coil but I didn’t have one and I already had the Yagi. I was able to use the unused ground pad from ANT 2 and removed the original antenna altogether. It was a tedious job but it will now penetrate my entire house and a brick wall from 100 ft out so I’m happy.
In those images it shows the wire going to the antenna plate and what looks like a small one off the the right? Can you give some instructions to that and any links to the items you used exactly? I put in two new windows in my office room here and that cut down big time on my signal and I'm not wanting to move the display but enhance the signal from the mount like you did there. I just need a detailed list of what you used and how you used it pls.
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I didn't see a good way of soldering the copper shield from the coax to the ground pad on the board. So I attached a small white wire to the copper shield, then covered that connection with heat shrink. Then I soldered the other end of the white wire to ground pad. Then I drilled a hole on the bottom of the station to screw in the male SMA connector. Does that make sense? Let me know if you have more questions.
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I didn't see a good way of soldering the copper shield from the coax to the ground pad on the board. So I attached a small white wire to the copper shield, then covered that connection with heat shrink. Then I soldered the other end of the white wire to ground pad. Then I drilled a hole on the bottom of the station to screw in the male SMA connector. Does that make sense? Let me know if you have more questions.
Yes the male SMA connector - got a link for that? I see the connector poking out the bottom there but from that to where you connected to board appears to be a wire about several inches long but I can't seem to find that to purchase unless you made it?
Got a link to purchase the SMA connector perhaps on amazon?
Thanks!
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I think technically I meant a female SMA connector. But anyway, you just need a coax cable with a female SMA connector on it and clip off the other end and open up the wire. Something like this should work: https://www.amazon.com/Bingfu-Bulkhead-Extension-Cellular-Amplifier/dp/B08139CQLG/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=female+sma+wire&qid=1596383232&sr=8-18
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I think technically I meant a female SMA connector. But anyway, you just need a coax cable with a female SMA connector on it and clip off the other end and open up the wire. Something like this should work: https://www.amazon.com/Bingfu-Bulkhead-Extension-Cellular-Amplifier/dp/B08139CQLG/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=female+sma+wire&qid=1596383232&sr=8-18
Ok perfect - and which cable and length did you use from that connector outside of the sensor to the yagi?
I don't want to go to long which appears you did 5-3 feet down? Got a link to that as well because when I'm searching the descriptions are misleading to exactly the size that should connect from one to the other.
The connections on the board should be fairly easy though good image of that from what you did.
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My coax with SMA connectors on each end is around 2-3’. Also, you need an SMA to N adapter to connect to the Yagi: DGZZI 2-Pack N Male to SMA Female RF Coaxial Adapter N to SMA Coax Jack Connector https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071L2C1ZK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_SQUjFb2DHAGRA
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My coax with SMA connectors on each end is around 2-3’. Also, you need an SMA to N adapter to connect to the Yagi: DGZZI 2-Pack N Male to SMA Female RF Coaxial Adapter N to SMA Coax Jack Connector https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071L2C1ZK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_SQUjFb2DHAGRA
Or I could just use this that goes directly from yagi to the connector if I'm looking at the ends correctly?
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07V2VFHS9/ref=pd_luc_rh_sspa_dk_huc_pt_expsub_0?psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExUDVCUzZTV1VKUkEyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjMzMjk3MjdPNDBUQUZaSUxQQyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTUyNDQ1WjNHSk1NNkdDNzNIJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfaHVjX21yYWkmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
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Yes, that should work.
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I've done some work with adding an external antenna also. I'll post some pics and instructions in a week or two.
My installation is on the outside of a metal barn, GW-1000 is inside. When the doors are closed no RF gets in. So I've modded the array with an RF connector and ran 25 feet of coax inside to a small antenna.
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I didn't see a good way of soldering the copper shield from the coax to the ground pad on the board. So I attached a small white wire to the copper shield, then covered that connection with heat shrink. Then I soldered the other end of the white wire to ground pad. Then I drilled a hole on the bottom of the station to screw in the male SMA connector. Does that make sense? Let me know if you have more questions.
I tried this today - I found no good way to attach the center conductor of the wire to the antenna spot...its too tiny for solder to connect to. I even temp wound it around the antenna after attaching a temp ground wire to the braided aluminum looking wire around that semi conductor center of the wire and attached the yagi everything no luck in seeing the signal raise from testing.
I'm kinda dumb founded at this moment.
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I'll be posting a complete report later this week. In the meantime, here's how I did it.
I used RG-174 miniature coax and removed the original antenna. I cleaned the solder from the hole and put the center conductor in and soldered. I scraped the green coating adjacent to form a solder pad for the braid.
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I'll be posting a complete report later this week. In the meantime, here's how I did it.
I used RG-174 miniature coax and removed the original antenna. I cleaned the solder from the hole and put the center conductor in and soldered. I scraped the green coating adjacent to form a solder pad for the braid.
Is the report ready?
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Is the report ready?
Yes
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Is the report ready?
Yes
So, where is it? When will it be posted?
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Here it is:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=40198.0 (https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=40198.0)
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So which antenna is everyone using?
XHTECH 11dBi 824-960MHz GSM CDMA Yagi Antenna Outdoor
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014CU9JYQ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A27P16HLMP5BKI&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014CU9JYQ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A27P16HLMP5BKI&psc=1)
or
Phonetone 7/9dbi Outdoor Directional Yagi 698-960/1710-2700Mhz GSM Outdoor Antenna
https://www.amazon.com/Phonetone-Outdoor-Directional-1710-2700Mhz-Connector/dp/B00EC804SO/ref=pd_ybh_a_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7TQB73HD0ZDS9TWTNKCE (https://www.amazon.com/Phonetone-Outdoor-Directional-1710-2700Mhz-Connector/dp/B00EC804SO/ref=pd_ybh_a_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7TQB73HD0ZDS9TWTNKCE)
Seems like the 11bBu would be better especially since it covers a narrower band.
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I have bought both, but I like the 11dBi single band antenna better. Adding the 2.4 GHz band does me no good.
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It could be your 'smart' meter. Utility companies have incorporated a wireless way to read your electric meter. It's in the 900Mhz frequency range. They output a full watt of power. While working for an electric company, part of my job was testing these things for radiation issues. I discovered they burned out motion detector lights near them, like within 10' or so. The company was replacing lights for customers like popcorn until they finally got the meter company to swap them out.
Smart meters typically use either 902MHz or 2.4 GHz and only transmit when they are queried from the neighborhood concentrator, they are not sitting there broadcasting all the time. In fact, they are typically using a mesh network of up to 5 hops through other meters to reach the concentrator because the individual meters are not strong enough to reach it on their own.
Smart meters are part 15 devices and they are NOT burning out motion detector lights near them, nor do they require frequent testing by the power companies. In the US, smart meters in residential areas are required to meet absolute emissions limits for unintentional emitters and/or carrier-current devices and the transmit power limits for intentional emitters as specified in Part 15 rules. The data from the smart meter is sent out in short transmission bursts, which usually last a maximum 250 milliseconds at a time. In a typical day a smart meter spends about .25 seconds per minute actually transmitting, for a total of 6 minutes transmitting time per day, for a maximum duty cycle of .4%
I'm just a grumpy guy with a PhD in Electrical Engineering, with a specialty in RF engineering, so take my post for what you want, but Smart meters are NOT interfering with your weather stations.
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It could be your 'smart' meter. Utility companies have incorporated a wireless way to read your electric meter. It's in the 900Mhz frequency range. They output a full watt of power. While working for an electric company, part of my job was testing these things for radiation issues. I discovered they burned out motion detector lights near them, like within 10' or so. The company was replacing lights for customers like popcorn until they finally got the meter company to swap them out.
Smart meters typically use either 902MHz or 2.4 GHz and only transmit when they are queried from the neighborhood concentrator, they are not sitting there broadcasting all the time. In fact, they are typically using a mesh network of up to 5 hops through other meters to reach the concentrator because the individual meters are not strong enough to reach it on their own.
Smart meters are part 15 devices and they are NOT burning out motion detector lights near them, nor do they require frequent testing by the power companies. In the US, smart meters in residential areas are required to meet absolute emissions limits for unintentional emitters and/or carrier-current devices and the transmit power limits for intentional emitters as specified in Part 15 rules. The data from the smart meter is sent out in short transmission bursts, which usually last a maximum 250 milliseconds at a time. In a typical day a smart meter spends about .25 seconds per minute actually transmitting, for a total of 6 minutes transmitting time per day, for a maximum duty cycle of .4%
I'm just a grumpy guy with a PhD in Electrical Engineering, with a specialty in RF engineering, so take my post for what you want, but Smart meters are NOT interfering with your weather stations.
And here I thought the transmission was back through the power line. The closest neighbor's meter is 200 yards through trees and if there is hub nearby (out at the street) it would be no less than 175 yards penetrating my house, trees and then to the street. The neighbor's closest neighbor is over 600 yards south again signal would pass through his house and 100 or so trees to reach the neighbor. There also isn't an antenna on my meter so that means it would be a small omni-directional one inside the meter if it existed. If the meter really does transmit data wirelessly at these ranges, it sure seems our weather stations could be made to transmit data better.
EDIT: From Wikipedia
Communications from the meter to the network may be wireless, or via fixed wired connections such as power line carrier (PLC). Wireless communication options in common use include cellular communications, Wi-Fi (readily available), wireless ad hoc networks over Wi-Fi, wireless mesh networks, low power long-range wireless (LoRa), ZigBee (low power, low data rate wireless), and Wi-SUN (Smart Utility Networks).