Author Topic: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?  (Read 12428 times)

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Offline mhardiman

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Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« on: August 14, 2011, 10:15:57 PM »
Hi folks,

I was looking to take an informal "poll" of PWS users out there.  Do any of you upload your data to Weather Underground, but not to CWOP?  If so, why?

Thanks,
-Mike

Offline DanS

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 10:39:35 PM »
Hey Mike, yes. I'm running 2 stations for comparison reasons mainly but also to have a running back-up if something goes belly up. The primary system uploads to PWS, WU, and CWOP but the back-up system is uploading to WU only. It's uploading there so I can keep an eye on it's performance using WU's charts against my primary system's charts. Actually the airport's Metar station nearby is included when I check the charts. If something drifts then it will stick out when comparisons looked at.

Dan
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 10:44:16 PM by DanS »

Offline SlowModem

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 10:55:45 PM »
Hey Mike, yes. I'm running 2 stations for comparison reasons mainly but also to have a running back-up if something goes belly up. The primary system uploads to PWS, WU, and CWOP but the back-up system is uploading to WU only. It's uploading there so I can keep an eye on it's performance using WU's charts against my primary system's charts. Actually the airport's Metar station nearby is included when I check the charts. If something drifts then it will stick out when comparisons looked at.

Dan


Yes, that's quite right.  In a recent survey of weather stations in my yard, 2 out of 3 stations did not report to CWOP but 3 out of 3 did report to WU and PWS Weather.   :roll:
Greg Whitehead
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Offline Downlinerz2

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 11:56:27 AM »
   I have only 1 station (a VP2) and I only upload to WU and PWS.  I may do CWOP someday but just chose not to.  I might do CWOP someday but not right now.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 11:59:18 AM by Downlinerz2 »

Offline wxtech

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 01:50:00 PM »
I send to just about everything.  WeatherLink.com; WU, CWOP, PWSweather, WeatherBug, Weatherforyou, and LexingtonWX.
I quit serving to CWOP/findu out of a disagreement with their soliciting of money and their advertising/doubleclick malware policies.  Then I decided to continue and just not recommend them as a source of wx data.  I also manually provide data to National Weather Service Co-operative program and CoCoRaHS.
Al Washington, Lexington, Ga.,  NWS Coop station=LXTG1, Fischer Porter, SRG, MMTS. 
CoCoRaHS=GA-OG-1. CWOP=CW2074.  Davis VP2+ WLIP 5.9.2, VP(original) serial, VWS v15.00 p02. ImageSalsa, Win7 & Win8 all-in-one.

Offline DaculaWeather

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 02:22:24 PM »
I send my data everywhere you can imagine.  :-)

Offline ocala

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 03:18:36 PM »
I send to just about everything.  WeatherLink.com; WU, CWOP, PWSweather, WeatherBug, Weatherforyou, and LexingtonWX.
I quit serving to CWOP/findu out of a disagreement with their soliciting of money and their advertising/doubleclick malware policies.  Then I decided to continue and just not recommend them as a source of wx data.  I also manually provide data to National Weather Service Co-operative program and CoCoRaHS.
Al I understand being solicited for money but that's the only way CWOP can stay in business. The ads on their page are trying to offset that cost. Don't know about the malware issue as this is the first I have heard of it.
As for the original topic I send data to WU and CWOP. 
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Offline tobyspond

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 04:41:51 PM »
I upload to WU, PWS, CWOP, and the Northeastern Weather Network.

Kerry

Offline SlowModem

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 04:53:13 PM »
Al I understand being solicited for money but that's the only way CWOP can stay in business. The ads on their page are trying to offset that cost. Don't know about the malware issue as this is the first I have heard of it.

I think the ads are on findu, not cwop, right?
Greg Whitehead
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Offline SLOweather

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 05:11:26 PM »
Yeah, FindU is run by a single person, Steve Dimse, a radio amateur. As I recall, he started it as a way to get APRS location data on-line and the adoption of the APRS weather feature by web based stations kinda took over. Like us, it's a hobby, not a business, and the ads offset only part of the cost.

CWOP says they are a private/public partnership, but I couldn't find any info quickly on funding.

A few years ago, when he was looking for donations to pay off a bigger server, we did a competitive donation drive here and on Weather-Watch to help him out.

Al I understand being solicited for money but that's the only way CWOP can stay in business. The ads on their page are trying to offset that cost. Don't know about the malware issue as this is the first I have heard of it.

I think the ads are on findu, not cwop, right?

Offline wxtech

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 07:39:08 PM »
This is the site that I recommend to view CWOP wx data: http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/meso_base.cgi?stn=C2074
It's funded and doesn't have advertisement or seek donations. 
I have weather equipment because it's my hobby.  I provide weather observations as a public service to the extent that I can afford. 
Al Washington, Lexington, Ga.,  NWS Coop station=LXTG1, Fischer Porter, SRG, MMTS. 
CoCoRaHS=GA-OG-1. CWOP=CW2074.  Davis VP2+ WLIP 5.9.2, VP(original) serial, VWS v15.00 p02. ImageSalsa, Win7 & Win8 all-in-one.

Offline floodcaster

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 05:21:55 PM »
I use the MesoWest map frequently to look at my site and surrounding locations. As wxtech mentioned, no annoying ads. :-)

Should also mention that the nice thing about CWOP data is that it's available to the NWS via a MADIS feed.
Bill


Offline chief-david

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 05:25:43 PM »
My first three years, I only sent to WU.

Only one year to CWOP.



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Offline ed2kayak

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 06:57:32 PM »
I upload to both.
Ed
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Offline jgillett

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 07:39:40 PM »
This is the site that I recommend to view CWOP wx data: http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/meso_base.cgi?stn=AS882
It's funded and doesn't have advertisement or seek donations.

Forgot about those folks. Thanks for the reminder (I stuck my station ID in your quote).

Quote
I have weather equipment because it's my hobby.  I provide weather observations as a public service to the extent that I can afford.

I agree with that completely.

My data goes to both CWOP and WU. However, I still don't like the idea of being compared to folks around me who may or may not be providing accurate data (no offense intended to those close). Their readings can affect my 'standing', which I don't like. Quit CWOP once, but went back to it. Not sure why...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 04:18:46 PM by jgillett »
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Offline up10ad N9RJH

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 10:22:48 AM »
I send to both. but I'm not very enamored with CWOP.  

Their analysis and data status information seems to ignore microclimate variations and dings stations that accurately pick up these weather differences.  The actual stations that are used in the analysis are known only to MADIS and that's a shame.  I know for a fact that there is only one nearby station and most others are over 30 miles away.  Now tell me, how they can say my data is incorrect when they really have virtually nothing to compare it with to come to that conclusion?  Then they suggest that I make adjustments to my station to make it conform to their analysis!  This to me is absurd.  

The reason that more finite data analysis is needed (read more stations in more areas) is because microclimates exist.  I am within a mile of the confluence of two major rivers and I am pretty sure that my data is accurate.  CWOP has been dinging me for several years and I've tested with three stations during that period.  I'm considering removing my data feed because they apparently don't want accurate data, they want data that conforms to their modelling.

Just FYI, their analysis accurately indicates that my station was out of service for over a week; the first time in 8 years, but this has no bearing on their long-term dissatisfaction with my data quality
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:25:30 AM by up10ad »
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Offline mhardiman

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 01:32:11 PM »
Thanks for the responses, everyone.  The reason I asked is because there are several stations in my CWA (El Paso/Santa Teresa) that report only to WeatherLink.com or Weather Underground.  For several years, we had about 4-6 WU-only stations up in the Sacramento Mountains (7500-10,000' elevation), so there was no data from that area getting into the MADIS feed, so no MesoWest plots, and the RTMA analysis was warm-biased as a result.  Finally I sent a message to one of the most reliable WU stations asking him to consider sending data to CWOP (he had a web page, so it was easy to get in touch with him). 

MADIS does not currently have an agreement with WxUnderground, though I wish they did.  Even if they go that route in the future, I'm not sure what the terms of the agreement would be.  For example, AWS/Weatherbug sends data to MADIS, but they have restrictions on data re-dissemination (they want you to go to their website for data, and see the ads that help keep them in business).  So, no AWS stations show up in MesoWest or WeatherUnderground plots, but apparently the data does get into the RTMA analysis. 

My gut instinct was that most people sent their data to WU simply because it provides nice plots and a quick place to view the data, whereas the CWOP site, and FindU.com is a little more... clunky?  For the average person, there isn't much incentive to upload to CWOP, other than knowing that your data is going to a wider audience.

However, I was unaware of the quality control issue irking the more savvy users.  I'll need to look into this some more myself, but the past two posts brought up excellent points.  My first question is what is the "analysis" field they're using?  Is it simply based on surrounding stations, or is it a from a gridded model analysis of some sort (e.g., LAPS, RTMA, RUC)?  Either method is likely to have several potential pitfalls. 

My guess is that this was a well-intentioned but poorly-executed method of quality controlling observations that go into the MADIS feed.  MADIS provides datasets that are either filtered or unfiltered, but their NWS/AWIPS feeds are not QC'd at all.  MesoWest, for example, does not eliminate data, but it does have a system of QC "caution flags" ... I'm not sure if this is from the MADIS QC or something home-grown.

Looking at the various websites, the MADIS QC is indeed presented a little too strongly, and the wording suggests that it is more of a measuring stick than merely "guidance."  There's no mention of the potential fallibility of the 'almighty analysis' and if that is alienating potential observers, then perhaps it needs to change.  In the meantime, all I can say is don't take it personally.  I'm not sure who (if anyone) even notices the QC flags.That said, those red X graphics would tick me off too!

I'd like to see the NWS become more involved with CWOP, potentially addressing some of the network's issues.  While 'Big Daddy Government' shouldn't get to say who can and cannot upload data to CWOP, perhaps we could do more outreach, suggesting the best siting possible, diagnosing (real) problems with observations (e.g., maybe all a warm-biased site needs is a simple 'beehive' radiation shelter, perhaps a barometer reading is off because an observer was confused by the 3 billion different ways of measuring pressure), and ensuring that users are aware of available software/firmware updates that ensure the data being sent meets the CWOP specs (2-minute Average Wind, 10-Minute Gusts).  Perhaps stations that have had some sort of inspection could get a special designation?  (Just thinking out loud here).

Those are some of the biggest problems I see with sites in my area.  For example, some sites do not upload 24hr Precipitation (and MADIS, for whatever reason, does not accept Since-Midnight Precip. though it is often more useful), others are using station pressure instead of altimeter.  Some do not upload wind gusts.  Other do upload the wind gusts, but there's no way to know if their software uses  the proper 2/10 spec.  There's also sites that may be following the 2/10 spec, but have a 15-30 minute upload frequency (meaning "peak" wind gusts can fall through the cracks).  In the case of the precip and wind gusts, sometimes software or firmware upgrades can fix the problem, but not everyone is comfortable doing upgrades...especially for firmware.

Finally, there needs to be a way where humans are helping guide quality control for all observations going into the RTMA analysis.  Automated means can be used to "flag" and even temporarily black-list a station, but if a forecaster or HMT at a WFO has looked into the potential problem, and has diagnosed it to be OK, then the flag is overridden.  Again, just thinking aloud. 

Thanks again for the comments.
-Mike

Offline wxtech

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2011, 01:57:06 PM »
Mike,
I agree with you mostly.  Perhaps stations that have had some sort of inspection could get a special designation?   I get inspected at least annually by the NWS Regional Coop Manager.  My temperature system is very accurate according to him.  I calibrate my PWS to the NWS system.  MADIS should designate me as a reference station for temperature.
Since CWOP/MADIS doesn't divulge details of the source of their reference data; their credibility is zero
There should be a source of weather references that can be made available to PWS either by mail or technician visit. 
We CoCoRaHS counties/regions/states have local meetings.  Other weather phenomena could piggy-back on rain data that CoCoRaHS provides.  They did rain data acquisition right and no one can question the credibility of their rain data.
Al
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Offline dkinsc

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2011, 04:25:22 PM »
"However, I was unaware of the quality control issue irking the more savvy users."
I think you have generalized a little beyond your data here.  Lots of opinions on this, and no reliable measure of "savviness".
Del
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Offline Skywatch

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2011, 08:46:52 PM »
I spent my first year on Wunderground. Only then last October-November I began reporting on CWOP. One of my main reasons for reporting to those organizations is to have a secure data base where there's little to no risk of losing data. Like lets say a computer crash, and all data is lost on the computer but not permanently. I like that.

  MADIS can be a little moody. In my situation I have about 30 other stations around me. (metropolitan area) MADIS doesn't seem to take into account, heat islands and microclimates that exist in suburban areas. So from time to time I end up with the red X. Sometimes I end up with the green cheak mark.

  This goes with every other station I compair with. Seems to happen in waves. Oh well. MADIS like everything else is no where near perfect. It does need tweeking. But then again, define accurate.
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Offline lancaster

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2011, 11:16:18 AM »
I do.
CWOP messes with Weatherlink so I stopped sending there.
I send to WU and then AWEKAS and two other spanish sites collect my station's data from my webpage.
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Offline xykotik

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2011, 12:25:55 PM »
My gut instinct was that most people sent their data to WU simply because it provides nice plots and a quick place to view the data, whereas the CWOP site, and FindU.com is a little more... clunky?  For the average person, there isn't much incentive to upload to CWOP, other than knowing that your data is going to a wider audience.

My station sends to WU and CWOP.  I just configured another for my father-in-law that sends to WU only, because he is only interested in seeing his wx online and sharing with family who really don't care about the gory details.  He also would never be interested in the QC or comparative analyses himself.

CWOP messes with Weatherlink so I stopped sending there.

I used to have a similar problem until I rolled back to 5.9.2a-BETA.  There are a couple of APRS servers in the DNS rotation that were timing out causing 5.9.2 to crash.  I believe they increased the timout in 5.9.3, but it would just skip that upload if it couldn't make a timely connection, leaving big drop-outs in my CWOP data each time it would try to use the "bad" server.  With 5.9.2a-BETA I think it just keeps trying until it gets a connection, because it works smooth as silk with WL at that version.


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Offline smorris

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 03:24:41 PM »
I send data to everyone I can. I figure it doesn't take any effort on my part after the initial setup.

With LWC2 on the Mac, WU and CWOP are built in as well as a generic and custom web pages. The developer and/or contributors have come up with templates and AppleScripts to send to AWEKAS, UK Met Office, Midwestern Weather Network (and a few others in the same network), Twitter, and working on WeatherBug and PWS Weather.

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Offline paleoguy

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Re: Do you upload to WU, but not to CWOP?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 06:22:15 PM »
I upload to both plus PWS
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