Author Topic: Old Fashioned Weather Station  (Read 41711 times)

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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2014, 02:39:29 PM »
I am VERY familiar with most of these units, what do you need to know?
ID-1290 and ID-1590 booms are completely interchangeable.
New teflon bearings can be found at D8apro.com but VBX.com has bearings that can be put in place of the teflon by using a 3/8 drill in your hand and gently expand the housing to accept the new metal bearings but don't go too deep into the housings.

As for the ID-4001 boom working on an ID-5001 console, yes, remove one wire from either end of the boom.
As for the ID-5001 boom working on an ID-4001 console, yes, add one wire between the wind vane and the cups.
New booms are NOT available. They go for around $200 on eBay.
I have been trying to find a cheap way to reproduce them but the last plastic quote I got was $80,000 for 200 units!!!
The bearings are available via VBX.com.
IR Diode and Transistor is available via Mouser or DigiKey.
I have the plastic encoder disks without the silk screen and the images for the silk screen, just have to figure out how to get the image on the plastic.
Circuit boards can be made by hand.

ID-4001 processors have a problem, they were made with too much phosphorus, thus they eat themselves alive.
If there are no numbers lit on an ID-4001 console, processor is bad.
If there are number but the barometer is 0.00 the VCO is bad.
The processors are available new via D8apro.com.

ID-4001 temp senors MUST be connected, or an equivalent circuit with a 6.3v zener and a resistor on each temp input or the VCO will not work right and the VCO affects the Barometer. New temp sensors are availbe vis D8apro.com

I have an LED conversion for the ID-1590 wind direction and units.
I like the Neon digits, besides, the console needs more amps from the 5 VDC power supply when 7 segment LED's are put in place for the Neon digits.
If there is not enough power the regulator cant regulate and you get a pulsating DC wave form on the logic chips causing them to not work right.

The Temp sensors for the ID-1290 and ID-1390 are nothing but two diodes in series.
They "should be balanced" for accuracy but not critical.

Any Heathkit related questions, I think I can answer.

Thanks
Steve
P.S. I do not work for D8apro.com or have any affiliation, I just know since I have bought parts from them.
Thanks
Steve

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2014, 10:37:03 PM »
I get asked a lot about the reed switches in the 1590 and 1290 wind boom. I'm not aware of anybody that makes them. I've never been able to find the specs on the ones Heathkit used. It seems to be a mystery.
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2014, 11:57:55 PM »
The reed switches are availible on mouser.com or digikey.com or Jameco.com
I will measure the original switches and post it here. Then I will look in my parts bin for the supplier and part number since I'm pretty sure I bought new ones.
Thanks
Steve
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Steve

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2014, 07:45:51 AM »
Steve (rookie, yeah, sure)
Thanks for sharing all the info in the message about the ID4001 and 5001.

Can you expand on how to convert the booms from one to the other.  You mention adding or removing a wire, but with the 8 conductor bundle (if I remember correctly) that leaves me a bit of guesswork.

Were the optical choppers and sensors wired differently (I think the code pattern sent back was a bit different, maybe my memory cells are faulty) but other than that, to do a conversion from one to another, what's the basic change needed, and when you mention the wire connection method, which one specifically is added/removed, and what does it do to the boom?

Also, I have one 4001 station (amongst a couple sitting waiting for my attention) and it came from ebay at a good price, with an updated processor making it a bit faster and adding some extra functions.  It sounds as if you've had experience with 4001s that have that update.  Any comments on your station with this 'improvement' or don't you like it. 

Thanks again for sharing your information and experience.  Keeping these grand old devices running is a challenge and yet like car restorations, there is pride and a sense of accomplishment when one can be restored to functioning status.

I just have a wife who doesn't thing a tower or roof tripod covered with booms and anemometer things is especially helpful to adding value to the property.  Little does SHE know!

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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2014, 10:08:04 AM »
Hi Dale:
(The rookie user name come from chess, I like the Rooks :-)
I am happy to help fellow weather enthusiasts!
The main reason I like the Heathkit weather stations is one, they are nearly instant read, wind speed changes, and you will see it. The fastest modern weather station is 1.5 seconds, in a wind gust A LOT can change in 1.5 secs! Two, they are easy to see across the room except for the id-1290 with the meters. Last, they are "usually" easy to fix. Even the id-1590 with the neon display can "usually" be coaxed back to life with some short term higher current times to burn off the oxidation on the elements. I have two 4001, five 1290, eight 1590, one 1390.

The 4001 and 5001 booms and their parts are exactly the same between them, IR diodes and transistors, bearings, circuit boards, encoders, all the same. I can talk about the encoders in a later post if your interested. The only difference is wiring from the direction side to the speed side.
I have a document some place because I bought a 5001 boom and had to convert it to the 4001 and the wire goes from the direction side to the speed side of the boom.
(Doing this from memory and won't be able to give a detailed conversion right now but I will post it when I find it.)
The main harness is connected on the direction side and in the 4001 boom 4 wires go from the direction side to the speed side.
The 5001 boom is missing the 5VDC on the speed side since Heathkit redesigned the 5001 slightly by feeding the 5VDC through one of the wires going to the speed side instead of a separate wire for 5vdc.
So, all that has to be done to convert the 5001 boom to work with the 4001 is add a wire from the direction side to the speed side and wire it so the IR diode is on. An easy way to check if the IR diode is working is use your cell phone camera and look directly at the diode if your see it glowing in your phone, it's working.
(Sorry its not more detailed, I will look for the document and post the exact steps.)
The great thing about this is you can wire things up and try it, you blow anything out, the IR diodes and transistors are very forgiving.
I know because of all my attempts to get it working I soldered 5VDC to the wrong places and didn't break anything.
If someone has the 5001 boom portion of the schematic, I can tell whats missing, that's if I can't find my document.
(I had a 5001 for a short time and should have kept it but I got $495 on eBay for it. I should have made some notes about those types of differences but forgot.)

I installed the 4001 processor upgrade and was not able to calibrate the temp sensors. According to D8aPro I needed to put a 1meg ohm resistor across the calibrate switch since if the voltage is not right the processor goes wonky. And when switching from cal to operate it might see something it doesn't like because the switch is cheap and the bounce causes problems. So, my current 4001 is stock. I figured I will wait until the processor goes south and then deal with it. The only feature that might be worth installing the processor is the fade when switching between date and time. But I usually leave mine on time anyway.

I am always happy to help in anyway I can. Especially with Heathkit stuff.
As for your plight with your wife, I am in the same boat. But I do it and let her bitch and she gets over it.
Im also a ham operator so there's THAT whole side of things besides the weather stuff she hates.

I attached a annotated schematic of the 4001 boom, hope it helps.

Hope all this helps I'm happy to help in anyway I can.
Thanks for asking.
Steve

P.S. The 4001/5001 wind booms are susceptible to lighting EMP pulses. If yours suddenly stops working, suspect the IR Diodes/Transistors need to be replaced. D8apro has new ones. I had an electrical engineer look at the schematic and suggest some ways to help prevent EMP pulse problems. I have not implemented them yet but it's on the list of things to do.
Thanks
Steve

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2014, 11:13:05 AM »
Hey, thanks for the load of info.

I'm like you, fix and not throw if possible.

That's why I'm a bit miffed that my othewise fully functional Davis VP Pro (original) has a funky humidity sensor and no replacements available, nor any offerings from Davis to provide a new part that 'looks' to the circuitry like the original.

Sort of a waste as far as I'm concerned, especially when friends fix vintage Collins stuff and old cars cruise the streets.

I haven't dug through the schematics for over a decade so I understand you're also not intimately familiar with the slight differences. I thought there were differences in the Grey Code sent down the wires, but that was awhile ago, too.

How do you 'easily' find which of the IR transistors or diodes are blown?  I once replaced the whole darn set just because once unsoldered to test, you may as well put new ones in.  Can you put the correct voltage across the diodes and have something indicate that it is lighted?  I don't see well in the infrared!

Thanks again.

Oh, your alluded to cheap switches and no debounce circuitry.  I wonder why, for something as classy looking and the decades of design excellence (usually) for Heath, that things like that, the crappy humidity sensor circuit, the lack of EMF protection, etc, got past them?  For a grand back then for the kit, which is a lot more now, you'd think the circuitry would be top notch.  Sigh.


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Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2014, 11:23:36 AM »
The only Heathkit issue I have never been able to resolve is with the IDW-5001. I cannot figure out why the barometer jumps 0.02 inch when the buzzer sounds and then returns to the correct reading when it stops. Initially I thought the pressure transducer was so sensitive that it was responding to the sound pressure created from the buzzer inside the cabinet. The buzzer is very loud. Then I took the cabinet off and put a piece of duct tape over the buzzer. I could barely hear it and it still jumps 0.02 inch. I think that eliminates it being sound pressure. Both the pressure transducer and the buzzer are on the main board. The buzzer is a Star QMB-01. Anyway, someday I'll figure it out.  :lol:

« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 12:37:33 AM by kcidwx »
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2014, 11:47:56 AM »
Hi Dale:
I have found the Humidity sensors on most weather stations to be weak. My old Oregon Scientific WMR 968 had the outdoor thermo/Hygro sensor replaced twice! since after a few years it would go WAY out of spec for humidity. Thats why is stay away from LaCrosse weather stations, they are horrible AND they do not allow companies to query their serial protocol! They will tell you, if you use their protocol wrong it will brick the console and they will not replace it! Huh? What? Duh! If you want people to use your stuff make it easy for them!

As for the Grey code, no differences.

As for the IR diode, use your cell phone camera, it "sees" infrared.

As for the switch issue, as good as Heathkit was, and some of their designs were quite ingenious, they did some things, like cheap switches and other silly things. There is a high voltage power supply where they really should have used resistors across the rectifier diodes and didn't and they were lucky in that case because "usually" the diodes came from the same lot and had very similar specs.
The other thing they did on the 4001 is both temp sensors HAVE to be connected or the VCO doesn't work right. Since if only one is connected the balance is off and the resistor network for the VCO pulls the voltage in one direction. There is an equivalent circuit that can be connected in it's place and then the barometer will read right. But whats the point of having baro only? The VCO is not used for the wind readings thus they are not affected by missing temp sensors.

Hope that helps.
Steve
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P.S. We are not far from each other. If your ever in Milwaukee ping me and maybe we can meet.
Thanks
Steve

Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2014, 11:56:10 AM »
My first guess is the buzzer is in the same circuit as the sensor and when it buzzer sounds it causes the VCO to change it's voltage enough for the processor to "see" it. It may be a simple as wiring the buzzer directly to the 5 VDC supply instead of picking it off someplace where it might affect the VCO. It depends if they are sourcing or sinking through the buzzer. In looking at your picture it looks like they are using a Transistor to turn on the buzzer. Also, the sensor does not like bright light, it will cause it to read different in bright light, a short piece of black tubing put on the sensor will help that problem.

Can you take a good picture of the schematic where the sensor and the buzzer are?
If you can and send it to me I will be happy to look at it.
Also, since you have a 5001 could you take a picture of the schematic where the wind boom wiring is, there is another post I am help with on the difference between the 4001 and 5001 wind boom wiring?
I can help but I need the schematic.

Hope that helps.
Steve
Thanks
Steve

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2014, 05:16:11 PM »
Hi Dale:
(The rookie user name come from chess, I like the Rooks :-)
I am happy to help fellow weather enthusiasts!
The main reason I like the Heathkit weather stations is one, they are nearly instant read, wind speed changes, and you will see it. The fastest modern weather station is 1.5 seconds, in a wind gust A LOT can change in 1.5 secs! Two, they are easy to see across the room except for the id-1290 with the meters. Last, they are "usually" easy to fix. Even the id-1590 with the neon display can "usually" be coaxed back to life with some short term higher current times to burn off the oxidation on the elements. I have two 4001, five 1290, eight 1590, one 1390.

This is why I use the RM Young 5103 wind sensor and ignore the data coming from my Davis anemometer. You are not getting accurate instantaneous peak wind data with the Davis. It's my biggest pet peeve when it comes to wind speed data. No sample rates. I don't care what the WMO says  :lol:
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Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2014, 11:51:08 PM »
ID-5001 Wind Speed/Direction Diagram

ID-5001 Main Board Diagram

If you need a close up of a particular area let me know. These diagrams are poster size. Way too big for a scanner.
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2014, 12:29:23 AM »
Yup, love instant read wind instruments!
Hard to justify the cost though. Especially when the wife looks at everything I do as silly.
Quite a few nice instant read devices. RM Young being top notch 
Thanks for the confirmation.
Steve

Hi Dale:
(The rookie user name come from chess, I like the Rooks :-)
I am happy to help fellow weather enthusiasts!
The main reason I like the Heathkit weather stations is one, they are nearly instant read, wind speed changes, and you will see it. The fastest modern weather station is 1.5 seconds, in a wind gust A LOT can change in 1.5 secs! Two, they are easy to see across the room except for the id-1290 with the meters. Last, they are "usually" easy to fix. Even the id-1590 with the neon display can "usually" be coaxed back to life with some short term higher current times to burn off the oxidation on the elements. I have two 4001, five 1290, eight 1590, one 1390.

This is why I use the RM Young 5103 wind sensor and ignore the data coming from my Davis anemometer. You are not getting accurate instantaneous peak wind data with the Davis. It's my biggest pet peeve when it comes to wind speed data. No sample rates. I don't care what the WMO says  :lol:
Thanks
Steve

Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2014, 12:53:19 AM »
FANTASTIC!
Excellent pictures. Just what I need. Thank you VERY much.
At first quick glance the VCO and the buzzer are on the same 15vdc supply.
There might be another component on the 15vdc supply that is drawing more current and when the buzzer turns on it can't regulate anymore and the voltage drops causing the change in the baro reading since it's also on the same 15vdc buss.
I will dig into it more and post back. Thanks again for the pictures.
By the way are you handy with a volt meter? If you are we can run some tests to see what's going on.
Thanks
Steve

ID-5001 Wind Speed/Direction Diagram

ID-5001 Main Board Diagram

If you need a close up of a particular area let me know. These diagrams are poster size. Way too big for a scanner.
Thanks
Steve

Offline Skywatch

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »
Weather Display software I use has settings for alternative wind inputs and I've seen this on YouTube with an Inspeed anemometer which gave 1 second wind updates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixk-_inybyk  Inspeed sensors are a bit cheaper than R.M. Young. Of course you don't need Weather Display.

Cheaper alternative to the R.M. Young system. If you're looking for live wind info.
http://www.inspeed.com/wind_data_logging/Windworks.asp
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:55:10 PM by Skywatch »
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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2014, 08:27:30 PM »
Even better would be if he had access to an oscilloscope and watch when the buzzer came on.  Drop in voltage, very noisy signal introduced onto the 15v buss when the buzzer buzzes?  All questions.
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Offline wxtech

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2014, 09:07:47 PM »
If the buzzer is a coil with interrupter contacts, lotsa noise over a wide spectrum from the contact arcing.  A capacitor in series with a 100 Ohm resistor wired across the contact points may decrease the electrical noise.  It's called a 'snubber'.  If it's a piezo alarm, nevermind.

Reverting away from Heath back to page 1.  Anyone interested in a completely dead Capricorn II Digital Weather Control by Hinds.  It's in a solid oak cabinet.  A piece of oak front frame is missing.  Best offer.  The mfr won't provide schematic or info.  3 voltage regulators are all out of tolerance of voltage outputs.  Totally dark & no sensors.
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2014, 11:37:46 PM »
Dales idea is a good one to use an o-scope.
And wxtech's idea of a cap is also, good.
According to what I see in the schematic it "appears" it's a speaker! not a buzzer.
Circuitry in front of the "speaker" indicates it really is a speaker since there is an oscillator circuit.

The ultimate question is, does kcidwx have any of the test equipment needed to trouble shoot the problem with our direction?

kcidwx?

Thanks
Steve
If the buzzer is a coil with interrupter contacts, lotsa noise over a wide spectrum from the contact arcing.  A capacitor in series with a 100 Ohm resistor wired across the contact points may decrease the electrical noise.  It's called a 'snubber'.  If it's a piezo alarm, nevermind.
Thanks
Steve

Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2014, 11:56:42 PM »
Thank much for the websites!
I will add them to my list.

As a complete side note, there is a guy on eBay selling  NRG Anemometers and wind vanes
 http://www.ebay.com/usr/anemometryoutfitters
I bought some of his stuff, the anemometers are AC generators and the wind vanes are 5k pots.

They work as good replacements for the Taylor weather stations.
Have to make some adjustments to the settings inside but they do work.

Thanks much!
Steve

P.S. Do you think we should start a separate topic on the Heathkit weather stations?

Weather Display software I use has settings for alternative wind inputs and I've seen this on YouTube with an Inspeed anemometer which gave 1 second wind updates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixk-_inybyk  Inspeed sensors are a bit cheaper than R.M. Young. Of course you don't need Weather Display.

Cheaper alternative to the R.M. Young system. If you're looking for live wind info.
http://www.inspeed.com/wind_data_logging/Windworks.asp
Thanks
Steve

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2014, 11:08:59 AM »
Dales idea is a good one to use an o-scope.
And wxtech's idea of a cap is also, good.
According to what I see in the schematic it "appears" it's a speaker! not a buzzer.
Circuitry in front of the "speaker" indicates it really is a speaker since there is an oscillator circuit.

The ultimate question is, does kcidwx have any of the test equipment needed to trouble shoot the problem with our direction?

kcidwx?

Thanks
Steve
If the buzzer is a coil with interrupter contacts, lotsa noise over a wide spectrum from the contact arcing.  A capacitor in series with a 100 Ohm resistor wired across the contact points may decrease the electrical noise.  It's called a 'snubber'.  If it's a piezo alarm, nevermind.

I have a multimeter but no oscilloscope. I believe it is a speaker but they list the part as a buzzer/transducer.  The original part is a Star Micronics QMB-01. This is the replacement part.

http://www.challengeelectronics.com/data/pdf/CEET160B140-27-103-20P7.6LHR.pdf

I was just told by Don at D8apro that the pressure jump from the speaker is normal operation of the ID-5001. I find it hard to believe that this was considered acceptable. He states it's sound pressure but I think I confirmed it's not. Ideally I wanted to find someone with a working one to confirm if theirs did the same thing. I had three of these units 20 years ago and I don't remember any of them doing this. It's also possible I just never noticed it or my memory has faded.  :lol:
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2014, 11:39:31 AM »
There is a guy I know who has a 5001, I will ask him if his does the same thing.

You are correct, by the looks of the spec sheet, it's a buzzer.

On a side note, you did put a piece of tape over it without success. Just for the hell of it try putting a piece of plastic tube on the baro sensor and run it into a box with a hole in it or if you have a long enough tube under a door with the door closed.
Or a dresser stuck in the clothing.
All of these are to dampen the sound pressure "if" that is really the problem.
The pressure should still be stable from atmospheric pressure and should not be influenced by the buzzer if it really is sound pressure.

Thanks
Steve
Thanks
Steve

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2014, 11:54:29 AM »
I did put a piece of duct tape over the buzzer and it made no difference. Here is Don's reply on the issue. It definitely makes sense but it seems I have proven it can't be sound pressure by putting tape over the buzzer.

Quote
It is normal operation.  The speaker can increase the pressure reading by adding sound waves to the inside of the box.  The pressure sensor interprets these sound waves as increased pressure (it actually IS increased pressure).  You can also notice the barometer change if the console is setting close to your stereo speakers and the volume is turned up.  I seem to recall that this was in the manual somewhere, but I don't remember where.  In the 'Circuit Description' section, it tells you that the sensitivity of the pressure sensor is 0.05 V / Inch.  A 0.02 Inch change represents only a 1 milli-Volt change from the pressure sensor.
 
You could place a resistor in series with the speaker to reduce the sound level.  This will then reduce or eliminate the jump in the reading.
 
We once (at Heathkit) connected the circuit of the barometer output, through a capacitor, into a cheap audio amplifier and discovered that we could use the barometer sensor as a microphone.  Not a very good one, but a microphone just the same.  Sound waves are actually pressure waves.
 
Isn't science wonderful???
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Offline rookie1973

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2014, 11:58:57 AM »
Thanks for forwarding his response, yes interesting but I agree with you, I think you proved, in your case, it's not sound pressure.
LOVE these old stations!

Thanks
Steve
Thanks
Steve

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2014, 01:04:06 PM »
Just to make things even more complicated, the buzzer will either emit a steady tone or it will beep. Regardless of whether it beeps or emits a steady tone the barometer will increase 0.02. However, there is also the option to turn on the keypad chirp. Every time you press a key on the keypad the buzzer emits a chirp. You can sit there and push a keypad button in rapid succession to create repeated chirps until you are blue in the face and there's no pressure increase. Figure that one out  :lol:
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Offline wxtech

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2014, 01:07:27 PM »
My suggestion of adding a snubber assumed that it was a mechanical buzzer with contacts.  This is a piezo transducer.

Troubleshoot by removing it or disconnect one lead.  Or you could insert a 100 Ohm resistor temporarily in place of the transducer to see if the load still caused the disruption.  It's a 1.5 volt transducer drawing 18 ma.  If it's defective, it may be drawing more current than normal.
While you have the old one off the ckt board, replace it with a new one.

Al Washington, Lexington, Ga.,  NWS Coop station=LXTG1, Fischer Porter, SRG, MMTS. 
CoCoRaHS=GA-OG-1. CWOP=CW2074.  Davis VP2+ WLIP 5.9.2, VP(original) serial, VWS v15.00 p02. ImageSalsa, Win7 & Win8 all-in-one.

Offline kcidwx

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Re: Old Fashioned Weather Station
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2014, 01:59:39 PM »
Where in the circuit would be a good place to test to see if it's actually only drawing 18mA?
Meteorological Technician
NWS Certified Aviation Weather Observer
B.S. Meteorology