Author Topic: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...  (Read 48109 times)

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Online saratogaWX

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WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« on: January 13, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »
I don't know if you've clicked on the Terms of Service link at the bottom of Wunderground pages, then read it.  This seems to be a new page that's appeared in the last month or so, and has some incredible restrictions in it:  (see http://www.wunderground.com/members/tos.asp )

Quote
TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE

The Wunderground.com site is (the "Site") is owned and operated by The Weather Underground, Inc. ("WUI"). Listed below are the terms and conditions of use (the "Terms") for this Site. By using, accessing and/or viewing information on the Site, you (the .Participant.) agree to be bound by these Terms. If you violate these Terms, WUI has the right to terminate your use of the Site and/or take appropriate legal actions against you. We reserve the right to change these Terms at any time by posting on the Site. participant understands and agrees that its use of this Site is a benefit voluntarily given by WUI and that WUI may withdraw that benefit and rescind your participation at any time for any reason in its sole discretion. If you do not agree to the Terms you cannot use this Site or the services and information offered herein.

   1. PERMITTED USE. You may use the Site and the features, information, pictures and other data contained therein (collectively, the "Data") only for personal, non-commercial purposes. You may access, view and make copies of the Data in the Site for your personal, non-commercial use and will not publish or otherwise distribute the Data for any other purpose. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not utilize the Site to sell a product or service, to advertise or direct activity to other websites or for similar commercial activities without our express written consent. You may not modify, publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit, any of the Data, in whole or in part. Further restrictions on the use of this Site and its Data are provided in Sections 2, 6 and 9 of these Terms and in the Photo Gallery Agreement (where applicable).


As written, it appears that we (members/contributors of data to Wunderground) may use/view data on their website for our personal use.  However, the two sentences:

You may access, view and make copies of the Data in the Site for your personal, non-commercial use and will not publish or otherwise distribute the Data for any other purpose. and You may not modify, publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit, any of the Data, in whole or in part.

imply that we can't use our own data (rapid-fire flash on our site, show graphs from wunderground about our data), nor embed their radar, satellite, weather map graphics (and presumably the forecast icons, and forecasts) on our sites either.

Now, the strange part.  The stock templates that come with VWS create websites that embed hotlinks to the Wunderground radar and satellite images, have forecasts (with icons) from Wunderground, and the automatic link generation for 'nearby' WU reports, which also appear on a mesomap function.  The template has a copyright at the bottom for Ambient and Wunderground.  So I guess (but don't know) that using VWS for this is an 'acceptable use' under their new Terms of Service.

For the rest of us (using WeatherLink, Weather-Display or others), what does it all mean?  I'm going to write the question to WU before I strip out all the WU stuff (attributed) on my site.  I had asked last year and was told that using the graphics/data on personal weather websites was ok as long as the source was attributed.

Happy New Lawyers...

 :evil:

Ken
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Offline capeweather

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 09:07:16 PM »
Yeah to me that sounds like Bullsh*t. They are using on our data to distribute on there website to cash in so what will it hurt to put a radar image on our personal site? Seems like a fair tradeoff but if they want to play dirty then in the long run they will lose. Not only are they getting data from just weather conditions but they have teamed with Astrogenic to provide lightning in there radar images. Gee I wonder where that comes from. Oh and I forgot to mention the Noaa weather radio project they just started. Hmm, do you think all these nice features could be done without the help of us..the contributors? That kind of irks me a little but let us know what you find out Ken. I may have not read it correctly but it didn't sound good.  :x

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 09:29:35 PM »
I've posted the question to:
Weather Station Information & Support
Shaun Tanner
(415) 543-5044 (fax)
Contact us through Weather Station Help http://www.wunderground.com/help/?topic=3&question=28&request=1#ask

Quote
Subject: Use of WU radar/satellite/maps on personal  weather websites

Question:
I noticed a new Terms of Service at the bottom of your site.  In reading it, I find that the ToS now seems to forbid personal weather websites from using graphics/forecast info from your site.  When I'd asked this question before the ToS appeared, I was given the answer that personal weather websites could use the information as long as attribution was given to WunderGround with a link to the page having the data on your site.

I know that VWS default templates generate hotlinks to your radar/satellite graphics, and pull data for the local mesomap generated by VWS.

Are all us weather enthusiasts now in violation of your terms of service?  Should we remove all graphics/links to WU on our personal weather websites?  Will Ambient be shipping a new VWS template set that doesn't violate your ToS?

My website is at http://saratoga-weather.org and I've been a contributing member since 2004.  If your ToS doesn't allow fair use of your summaries/maps/graphs in exchange for our uploads of weather data, I feel that many weather enthusiasts will withdraw from WeatherUnderground.

Please send clarification at your earliest opportunity.

Best regards,
Ken True
ph: 408-***-****
webmaster@saratoga-weather.org


I'll keep you updated on the saga.  If their new answer is "No use on personal weather websites", I'll be starting the exodus from WunderGround personally.

Ken
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Offline DundeeWeather

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 09:32:21 PM »
Sounds like we (the data contributers) need to come up with a similar Terms of Service.  Good point Ken on the Ambient/WUG partnership.  There is probably some fine print somewhere that explains the relationship.  

There is a simple answer to all of this:

www.weatherforyou.com  (and don't send WUG your data)

Greg
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Offline capeweather

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 09:32:34 PM »
I'm with ya...and the funny thing is..word will spread very quickly  :twisted:

Chris
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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2007, 09:33:33 PM »
Quote from: "DundeeWeather"
Sounds like we (the data contributers) need to come up with a similar Terms of Service.  Good point Ken on the Ambient/WUG partnership.  There is probably some fine print somewhere that explains the relationship.  

There is a simple answer to all of this:

www.weatherforyou.com  (and don't send WUG your data)

Greg


Already send my data to Joe.

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Offline DundeeWeather

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2007, 09:34:39 PM »
Quote from: "kenmtrue"


I'll keep you updated on the saga.  If their new answer is "No use on personal weather websites", I'll be starting the exodus from WunderGround personally.

Ken


Ditto - And that includes my NOAA weather radio stream as well.  We can start our own streaming project if it comes to that.
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Offline DundeeWeather

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2007, 09:35:25 PM »
Quote from: "capeweather"
Quote from: "DundeeWeather"
Sounds like we (the data contributers) need to come up with a similar Terms of Service.  Good point Ken on the Ambient/WUG partnership.  There is probably some fine print somewhere that explains the relationship.  

There is a simple answer to all of this:

www.weatherforyou.com  (and don't send WUG your data)

Greg


Already send my data to Joe.


I do too and couldn't be happier.
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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2007, 09:49:37 PM »
And I too send my data to WeatherForYou (Joe) too.  We'll see what Shaun has to say.. It was John  who'd told me it was ok to use the maps/etc:

Quote
From :    John Celenza
Reply-To :    john@wunderground.com
Sent :    Monday, March 6, 2006 2:51 PM
To :    "Ken True"
Subject :    Re: Weather Underground Testing Realtime -- still working
   
   
<snip>

On the city pages, we have a threshold for how far a ASOS station can be before a PWS station is used instead (as long as the PWS station is closer than the ASOS).  Last week I change the threshold from 15 km to 10 km.  So, you must be closer than 15 km and farther that 10 km from KSJC.

In the near future, we need to decide whether to simply choose the closest weather station, regardless of station type (or maybe even prefer PWS over ASOS stations). The real question is whether we can implement a good Quality Check algorithm first. If we could automatically know which PWS stations are reporting bad data, we could remove them from our selection.  Then, we could automatically pick the closest station that has the best data.  A little tricky!

I will definitely let you know when I finally lauch 1.10 of the WeatherLink module.  How do you like WeatherDisplay? It has a lot of features.

Almost forgot about hot linking.  Our philosophy is that you can use any of our maps on your site.  We only ask that the image or a link just below the image links to the page on our site that displayed the map.  Does that make sense?

We need to more clearly state our policy ;)

-John

On 3/6/06, Ken True  wrote:

    John:

    Long time, no hear ;-)

    I've temporarily stopped using the WeatherLink rapid-fire module and
    switched to using Weather-Display 10.33 for Wunderground update/Rapid-Fire.
    If you have another beta to test with WeatherLink, I'd be happy to revert to
    WeatherLink for the testing.

    Folks on www.weatherforum.net (a discussion forum) have been keenly
    interested in what has been going on with the WeatherLink beta -- do you or
    Shaun visit the forum to see what the comments are?  I know Joe Torisino of
    Weather4You/HamWeather is quite active on the forum.

    Tell your developers that the recent changes to Wunderground are great-- and
    I love the fact that my station now appears as the "Current Conditions" for
    Saratoga (instead of the KSJC METAR).

    Let me know if I can be of assistance testing future modules for you.

    I have a question for you regarding 'hotlinking' to radar images/weather
    maps/forecasts from your website by personal weather station websites..
    There seems to be no guidance on that in the blogs or a Terms & Conditions
    on your website.  I know a lot of PWS websites do offer your excellent
    radar/maps (with attribution) .. I've even redesigned my site to have some
    of those capabilities too.  Could you let me know if my usage of your
    radar/maps/forecast is ok (within Fair Use), or should I 'cease and desist'
    and offer the NOAA/NWS stuff only?

    Thanks in advance, and
    best regards,
    Ken True
    KCASARAT1
    http://saratoga-weather.org/

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Offline msdawg911

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2007, 11:06:42 PM »
I really don't mind the new TOS. If you contribute PWS data to the site, they give you a free membership which is worth $10. Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, they state in section 2 that you can use any PWS data with a credit to WU/Weather Exchange. Plus, when you look at any station submitting Rapid Fire updates, WU themselves gives you the code to put it on your website.

If you're really concerned about the radar image, either 1) buy GR3 and upload it yourself or 2) link to the NWS's feed.
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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 12:23:46 AM »
I think section 2 has two interpretations (or is at least confusing):

Quote
2. OWNERSHIP/TRADEMARKS. Participant does not acquire or have any ownership, license or other proprietary interest in the Site or the Data. You understand that the Site and the Data are protected by copyrights, trademarks, service marks, patents and other proprietary rights and laws. You cannot use any protected material without the express written consent of the owner of such material except as permitted by law. Specifically, some of Data on this Site, including all data derived from the .Personal Weather Station. Network, is unique and proprietary to WUI, is not part of the National Weather Service data network and is not available for commercial use without the advance written consent from WUI. ANY USE OF THIS DATA SHALL ACKNOWLEDGE Wunderground.com AND/OR THE WEATHER EXCHANGE AS THE SOURCE. WUI will take appropriate legal action to protect and safeguard any unauthorized use of this Data.


This sentence
Quote
You cannot use any protected material without the express written consent of the owner of such material except as permitted by law. Specifically, some of Data on this Site, including all data derived from the .Personal Weather Station. Network, is unique and proprietary to WUI, is not part of the National Weather Service data network and is not available for commercial use without the advance written consent from WUI.
(musta been written by a lawyer on bonus for word count in a sentence) seems to say: "this Data is ours, you need written consent to use it for commercial purpose" -- but neglects to say what about non-commercial usage.

The next sentence
Quote
ANY USE OF THIS DATA SHALL ACKNOWLEDGE Wunderground.com AND/OR THE WEATHER EXCHANGE AS THE SOURCE.
implies that there may be some use of the Data with attribution, but doesn't spell out when and who can use it.  The sentence in the Permitted Use clause that says
Quote
You may access, view and make copies of the Data in the Site for your personal, non-commercial use and will not publish or otherwise distribute the Data for any other purpose.
seems to deny access.

I agree with you that they give the HTML to put 'Rapid-Fire' on your webpage (and stickers), so it seems to run contrary to their new, Draconian, ToS .. I'll have to see what they say to the direct question.

Best regards,
Ken
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Offline Mark / Ohio

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 12:57:02 AM »
I would guess that would be to give them some leverage against usage by non-data contributors.  In a one way I look at it, they are protecting our data from being used without permission as well as theirs.

The response will be interesting.  Seems they should write a separate notice specific for data contributors like us so we know where we stand for sure.
Mark 
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Offline W3DRM

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 02:08:28 AM »
Quote from: "Mark / Ohio"
I would guess that would be to give them some leverage against usage by non-data contributors.  In a one way I look at it, they are protecting our data from being used without permission as well as theirs.

The response will be interesting.  Seems they should write a separate notice specific for data contributors like us so we know where we stand for sure.


Perhaps different lawyers wrote different sections of the ToS. It's hard to believe the same person wrote the entire section since there are many contradictory statements within the whole ToS.

Ken, I'm ready to cut the data-line to WU. Just let us know if we need to do it. Can't you see a couple hundred (maybe even 1000's of) sites go off-line simultaneously? Bet that would get someones attention pretty quickly.
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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 02:30:55 AM »
Quote from: "msdawg911"
I really don't mind the new TOS. If you contribute PWS data to the site, they give you a free membership which is worth $10. Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, they state in section 2 that you can use any PWS data with a credit to WU/Weather Exchange. Plus, when you look at any station submitting Rapid Fire updates, WU themselves gives you the code to put it on your website.

If you're really concerned about the radar image, either 1) buy GR3 and upload it yourself or 2) link to the NWS's feed.


Jake,

I think you have missed one sentence in the ToS that reads as follows:

Quote
You may not modify, publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit, any of the Data, in whole or in part.

The above sentence very clearly states we cannot "publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer... any of the Data, in whole or in part". That pretty much says we can't use WU data that really comes from our own weather stations. None of us asked to become WU Members, it was an integral part of the VWS software we purchased in the first place. Furthermore, as Ken has shown in an email from WU, he was given permission to use the WU data providing he gave attribution to the source of the data. It appears that this applies to anyone supplying PWS data to WU. Perhaps WU should give us attribution for the data we send to them!

If all of us currently sending them data pulls the plug on them, their website will look pretty bare very quickly.
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Offline Anole

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2007, 07:31:48 AM »
A couple of thoughts:

1) Before we jerk any knees, let's see what WU has to say in response to Ken's inquiry.

2) Thanks Ken for taking the initiative to do that.

3) Didn't we have a similar conversation about a year ago when they started the Rapid Fire project?

4) WU started marking their radar images a bit differently to include their logo and "wunderground.com" on the actual image about 6 months ago. This seems to imply that they don't care if we're using the image as long as we're properly attributing it.

5) It would be incredibly stupid for them to piss off the folks who provide them with the data that make visiting their site worthwhile. And piss me off it would if they tell me that I can't utilize for free, with proper attribution of course, data from their site on my site when I'm giving them my data for free.

6) While providing me with a free membership is a valid point as compensation for my data, not having to look at ads is not quite enough of a perk in my book. I want to be able to utilize the resources I contribute to.

7) If this turns out to be worst case scenario, WU will immediately lose my data, and the data from 3 other sites that I manage in the area as well. In addition my site will carry a detailed explanation as to why I am no longer providing any of our data to WU. I will also be encouraging all of my visitors to all of those sites to a) contact WU as a sign of their displeasure with this new policy and b) take WU out of their favorites list.

But for now I'll wait and see what they have to say in clarification of this policy.

Offline Anthony

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2007, 07:41:35 AM »
Just tell me when and I will gladly pull the plug. I would much rather send my data to Joe any way. And as far as radar images go. I would much rather use the one the WFY provides any way.


Thanks,
Anthony
WB8YUE

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2007, 08:48:22 AM »
I seriously doubt that the data from a couple of dozen sites would even be missed.  I have no idea what their membership base is, but I'm sure the vast majority of contributors are backyard hobbyists and aren't even aware of forums like these.

Offline Anole

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2007, 09:02:12 AM »
Right, since my site(s) and data are insignificant and won't be missed, I'll just sit here and take it.   :roll:

You shouldn't underestimate the impact a few well motivated folks who have the resources and know how to get the word out about this kind of thing can have. Five years ago WU could have simply shrugged off any dissenters, but it is a different world today.

Regardless, we aren't there yet. This may well be a tempest in a teapot.

Offline carterlake

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2007, 09:56:59 AM »
Quote from: "Anole"
But for now I'll wait and see what they have to say in clarification of this policy.


That's pretty much what I'm doing. Having a TOS and the way they enforce it are two different things. I didn't see an email from them to us members so it may be a change so they cover their a** unrelated to data contributors.

With the large amount of local traffic hitting my site from their weather radio program, I'm definitely waiting and seeing.

I also wanted to point out that in the past year WU has:

1) Added google mesomaps
2) Added their own form of Ajax to pages
3) Added rapid fire w/ option for sites to post on their own sites (although Ajax kicks it's butt!)
4) Added lightning data w/ cooperation of StrikeStar
5) Added weather radio

In other words, WU is being innovative in their website and potentially exposing my and your websites to a much larger audience.

It's nice to talk dump-and-switch but you will need to think quite hard on how many folks currently use WeatherForYou. Personally, I don't use Joe's website nor send him data. It's not that I don't like Joe or respect his efforts, it's just that I see no benefit for my site or visitors. On the Internet, it's all about numbers and exposure.... Weather Underground has vast amounts of both.

I want to thank Ken for pointing out their new TOS (who looks?) and taking the initiative to email WU about it. Can I nominate him again?

In the meantime, I finally switched my advisories page to be entirely NOAA data. That leaves just WU's radar data on my radar page (as a backup to GRLevel3).

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Offline weatherforyou

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2007, 01:42:56 PM »
Quote from: "carterlake"
Personally, I don't use Joe's website nor send him data. It's not that I don't like Joe or respect his efforts, it's just that I see no benefit for my site or visitors.


Thanks for responding here.  I've sent you e-mails asking why you don't participate but never got a reply.  At least now I know.

Why do you say supporting the work of a fellow weather enthusiast, who started a site to support weather enthusiasts eight years ago when the other sites were saying personal weather stations weren't "relevant to (their) content," is that much trouble?

How can you gauge there's no benefit to your site if you don't even participate?

Have you even asked what the numbers for weatherforyou.com are?  It may be bigger than you think.  I don't post them because I try to stay humble and remain connected to other weather enthusiasts.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but when I work my tail off and make sacrifices to serve personal weather stations only to find out some people think there's no benefit to them it bugs me.

I do very much appreciate everyone who does support weatherforyou.com and want to know how it can serve them better.  There are over 7,000 registered stations now and growing and weatherforyou.com will continue to serve every one of them.
Joe Torsitano


Offline msdawg911

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007, 02:18:47 PM »
Quote from: "W3DRM"
Quote from: "msdawg911"
I really don't mind the new TOS. If you contribute PWS data to the site, they give you a free membership which is worth $10. Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, they state in section 2 that you can use any PWS data with a credit to WU/Weather Exchange. Plus, when you look at any station submitting Rapid Fire updates, WU themselves gives you the code to put it on your website.

If you're really concerned about the radar image, either 1) buy GR3 and upload it yourself or 2) link to the NWS's feed.


Jake,

I think you have missed one sentence in the ToS that reads as follows:

Quote
You may not modify, publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit, any of the Data, in whole or in part.

The above sentence very clearly states we cannot "publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer... any of the Data, in whole or in part". That pretty much says we can't use WU data that really comes from our own weather stations. None of us asked to become WU Members, it was an integral part of the VWS software we purchased in the first place. Furthermore, as Ken has shown in an email from WU, he was given permission to use the WU data providing he gave attribution to the source of the data. It appears that this applies to anyone supplying PWS data to WU. Perhaps WU should give us attribution for the data we send to them!

If all of us currently sending them data pulls the plug on them, their website will look pretty bare very quickly.


I see your position, and I respect it. You do have some valid points. However, I'm not going to make any more comments on this issue until we receive that email. In the meantime, I will continue to upload data.
Jake Hughes
Mississippi State University
Professional Meteorology Student

GR2Analyst, WXSIM
Former user of: Weather-Display, WS2310, 1-wire station, WUHU, CoCoRaHS, Saratoga-Weather's and Carter Lake's numerous PHP/AJAX scripts

Online saratogaWX

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2007, 04:57:52 PM »
Thanks Jake.. I'm continuing to upload data, and will make a upload/withdraw decision based on WU's response to my query.  I'll also phone them on Monday (and Tuesday, in case they're closed for MLK day).

Joe: Thanks so much for being steadfast in your support for personal weather stations everywhere.  I'm pleased to be a part of WeatherForYou.  Depending on WU's stance, you may see even more folks join to support you.  Meanwhile, folks should join W4U as the cost of membership is nil, and the uploads aren't onerous (and built-in with WD).

Best regards,
Ken

BTW.. I'm also carrying on this discussion on the Weather-Display and VWS (Ambient) forums too :-)
Ken True/Saratoga, CA, USA main site: saratoga-weather.org
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Offline carterlake

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2007, 04:57:52 PM »
Quote from: "weatherforyou"
Sorry for hijacking this thread


Joe, I PMed you.

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Offline weatheroz

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2007, 06:39:02 PM »
Quote from: "msdawg911"
I really don't mind the new TOS. If you contribute PWS data to the site, they give you a free membership which is worth $10. Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, they state in section 2 that you can use any PWS data with a credit to WU/Weather Exchange. Plus, when you look at any station submitting Rapid Fire updates, WU themselves gives you the code to put it on your website.

If you're really concerned about the radar image, either 1) buy GR3 and upload it yourself or 2) link to the NWS's feed.


A $US10 free membership for providing valuable data free of charge to them? I think they get very good value out of all of us.

I would like to think that our free sites are entitled to utilise some of their data for our own websites, within a fair usage type situation


Besides, this 'free' membership, what do we really get out of being a 'free' member ?  :)
Brendan,
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Offline msdawg911

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Re: WunderGround lawyers have been busy...
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2007, 07:09:21 PM »
Like I said, I'm not making any more comments until we see that email.  :wink:
Jake Hughes
Mississippi State University
Professional Meteorology Student

GR2Analyst, WXSIM
Former user of: Weather-Display, WS2310, 1-wire station, WUHU, CoCoRaHS, Saratoga-Weather's and Carter Lake's numerous PHP/AJAX scripts