Author Topic: Boltek VS Blitzortung  (Read 4982 times)

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Offline Dr Obbins

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Boltek VS Blitzortung
« on: August 10, 2013, 12:06:14 PM »
On August 9th there was a good amount of storm / lightning activity across the USA. This is the radar showing these storms:

This is WeatherBug showing lightning in pretty much the same places:

And the new Blitzortung network with only a handful of stations:


However the StrikeStar network with 152 stations reporting at the time shows only this:

And my local Boltek showing this:


I guess I am kind of disappointed in the Boltek and StrikeStar results when compared to the Blitzortung results. I know all about the triangulation stuff, but how is the Blitzortung network with a handful of stations showing better results than StrikeStar with 152 stations? The Blitzortung has caught my attention, but I just spent ~$800 on the Boltek with software and maps. Also the Blitzortung doesn't have the localized map (yet).

Offline SLOweather

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 12:43:43 PM »
As a long-time Boltek user/StrikeStar member...

I believe that the original StrikeStar used just triangulation of the strike based on azimuth and estimated distance of the receiving stations. I don't know if the time stamp was the local computer time or the time of arrival at the server.

In any case, that relied on users accurately aiming their antennas, among other things. A few degrees error in aiming would translate to miles of error. (3 degrees at 100 miles is over 5 mile error on the far end. At 500 miles, it's a 26 mile error...)

GPS timing was not added until later and is not required. Indeed, if you look at http://www.strikestarus.com/StrikeStarUS_Stats.html you can see that a fair percentage of StrikeStar members don't have GPS, or, like mine (huh?) are off-line. (I need to check that...)

Like other things, the Boltek receivers were designed mainly for one thing (local lightning detection) and then 3rd party developers expanded their capability.

OTOH, this version of Blitzortung seems to be designed with TOA triangulation in mind, and benefits from no need to accurately aim the antenna.

Offline Dr Obbins

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 12:53:12 PM »
Quote
that a fair percentage of StrikeStar members don't have GPS, or, like mine (huh?) are off-line. (I need to check that...)
So YOU'RE  the reason the system is not working!  #-o  Very disappointing!  :???:  :grin:

I guess I am looking for the best of both worlds. The triangulation and conformation (no lightning over Illinois when I use the treadmill  #-o) that StrikeStar delivers along with the local radars. And the timestamped more comprehensive results that Blitzortung delivers. Even with over 1/2 the Boltek stations using GPS, there are far less results.


Offline miraculon

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 01:05:45 PM »
Quote
Also the Blitzortung doesn't have the localized map (yet).

Although Lightning Viewer isn't showing the Blitzortung "RED" Stations yet, it does have a local map capability that shows the <6.8USB "Green board" stations. The smaller map shows local strikes when they are in the vicinity.

It doesn't have range rings, etc. but it does show the strikes and aging.

I am hoping that they will add the RED stations soon.

UPDATE: I received word from Edmund that Lightning Viewer will not support RED and will not work after October.

Greg H.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 11:40:16 AM by miraculon »


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline SLOweather

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 01:17:24 PM »
So YOU'RE  the reason the system is not working!  #-o  Very disappointing!  :???:  :grin:


Fixed. :)

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 01:39:40 PM »
Also keep in mind that the Blitzortungs are apparently designed with secondary ionospheric reflection as high priority criteria, and not focusing as intently on the primary ground wave and 1st reflection. How else to explain that a couple of us have noted that our strike indications must lie well beyond the ground wave range? Watching the system as it's displayed, and with threshold low enough, this thing apparently responds to even the 3rd-5th reflection, as far as I can tell. They must have built some super programming to pull those apart and recognize them after that distortion and delay.
 


Offline gwwilk

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 02:34:36 PM »
I think the primary difference between observed StrikeStar and Blitzortung maps results from their different methodologies.

With the Boltek detectors, the strikes vectors and location are determined locally and then shared with the network.  If there is agreement regarding strike locations between observers on the StrikeStar network, they appear on the StrikeStar maps.

The Blitzortung network eschews local processing except I believe for packaging the strikes' Time of Arrival via GPS timing.  The network then triangulates the data by TOA and populates the map accordingly.

The Blitzortung methodology should be available for Boltek devices were someone to program a map with strikes triangulated only by GPS-determined Time of Arrival and ignore the obviously flawed vectors submitted via our current Boltek-derived strike data.  What I think could work is a StrikeStar-GPS network.  This network would only look at the TOA from GPS-equipped Boltek detectors in order to populate a map with strikes.

Meanwhile, I'm envious of the data generated by you lucky Blitzortung owners!
Regards, Jerry Wilkins
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Offline miraculon

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 12:19:15 PM »
After watching the lightning waveforms on both the Blitzortung display and my own oscilloscope, I have puzzled about how stand-alone detectors can estimate distance.
I have seen fairly distant strikes with high amplitude, yet close weak ones can look about the same. Maybe there is more to the waveform estimation algorithms with secondary responses, etc. than are obvious.

Further, all of the "pro grade" detection networks like Vaisala and NAPLN use Time Of Arrival (TOA), but with high-dollar equipment.

http://www.vaisala.com/en/products/thunderstormandlightningdetectionsystems/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.toasystems.com/

This is the main reason that I chose the Blitzortung route. At first cost was a factor, but I have to admit that I have put a significant sum into the two systems, antennas, misc. hardware, mods, etc. for the Blitzortung.

I think that a well-calibrated Boltek does an amazing job for what it has for the cost and technology.

Greg H.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 10:10:13 AM by miraculon »


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline Weather Display

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Re: Boltek VS Blitzortung
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 03:52:06 PM »
Quote
I have puzzled about how stand-alone detectors can estimate distance.
basicly just uses the strength of the signal
but that makes alot of assumptions
are weak storm will get plotted too far away and vice versa
the ranging in nexstorm is for when you know there things blocking from that direction
Brian
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