Author Topic: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP  (Read 7875 times)

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Offline up10ad N9RJH

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Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« on: March 10, 2008, 01:53:34 PM »
Steve, I'm not sure this is a question for you but this is as good a spot to ask it as any.

My CWOP data has been perfect for Temp and Barometer since I updated my station from a VP to a VP2Plus and began using VPLive to send the data.  However, the Dew Point data is not tracking well with them at all:

Quote
Dewpoint -- or switch to Relative Humidity
   24 hours   Day time   Night time
Average dewpoint error -3.7 °F -3.7 °F -3.7 °F
Error standard deviation 2.2 °F 2.1 °F 2.3 °F
Worst average dewpoint error -5.2 °F -5.3 °F -5.5 °F
Worst standard deviation 2.8 °F 3.6 °F 2.8 °F

NOTE: If the error above is POSITIVE, then it means that the analysis temperature is HIGHER than the reported temperature. This means that your sensor is reading COLDER than expected.

I thought that Dew Point was a calculated value from ambient air temp and humidity, so if my temp is accurate then it must be my RH that is off?  VPLive shows Dew Point in the Live Calculated Data section and again in the Running Averages area.  I assume this running average is what is being sent to CWOP? 

My Humidity at CWOP does show it being wetter or higher than expected:

Quote
Relative Humidity -- or switch to Dewpoint
   24 hours
Average humidity error -8.0 %
Error standard deviation 7.7 %
Worst average humidity error -13.3 %
Worst standard deviation 8.9 %

NOTE: If the error above is POSITIVE, then it means that the analysis humidity is HIGHER than the reported humidity. This means that your sensor is reading DRYER than expected.

Any other ideas regarding what could be causing the data differences besides a bad RH sensor?
Rick (N9RJH)
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Offline Mark / Ohio

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 09:08:10 PM »
I've been seeing a lot of dewpoint errors as well and wonder about my sensor.  One thing I did notice is when I graphed the readings of the local airports along with mine for the most part it tracked pretty close to them and CWOP's expected value fell outside (lower) than the airport's readings. 

I'm still wondering about my sensor though.  It stuck on 100% the last day and a half.  Could have been the block of ice froze to the radiation shield from my raingauge heater.   :mrgreen: 

But outside of that I'm still wondering if it is breaking down at a certain % and reading too high.  Just have not had the time or good weather on my days off to take out some of my inside RH gages to make a rough local comparison.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 09:12:44 PM by Mark / Ohio »
Mark 
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Offline tinplate

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 02:00:06 AM »
Only temp and humidity get sent to APRS/CWOP. The QC converts those to derive dew point. It's not hard to have dew point get flagged by the QC because it is a combination of data from two sensors. If both are a little off, their cumulative errors can cancel each other or magnify each other. There is also the surrounding station effect. The QC is a comparative analysis. All last summer my dew point QC was worse than usual. The culprit, I think, was a new station that came online that must have had very poor siting because their temperature was just wrong much of the time. That station has since dropped off, and now my dew point QC is something like 99% again.

The QC is only an indicator of a possible problem. But it requires some personal attention and analysis to determine if there is an actual problem or the reason for the flagging is something like normal microclimate differences, errant nearby stations, etc. If it's an actual problem, you need to determine if it's a siting issue, or a sensor issue. And you also have to determine if it's your temperature readings that are messing up the dew point, or if it's your humidity readings.

Steve

Offline up10ad N9RJH

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 09:52:41 AM »
Thanks for the feedback Steve.  I'm gonna wait a bit and watch how it goes.  I'll also do some handheld RH readings like Mark to verify my sensor readings. 
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Offline Bob65

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 10:36:42 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Steve.  I'm gonna wait a bit and watch how it goes.  I'll also do some handheld RH readings like Mark to verify my sensor readings. 
I'm dealing with the same type issue and came to the same conclusion myself.
What do use use for the hand held readings? I have to buy something either a sling or electronic and see pros and cons to each.
Appreciate your thoughts on this.
Regards, Bob
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Offline ldelatorre

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 08:30:06 PM »
I too have temperature/dew point issues with QC even though my station is the only one in 30 miles.  I have a new VP2 and most of the temperature error is at night!!!  I gave up on it.

Offline George Richardson

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 12:35:25 AM »
Hey Bob,

I'll comment but it may be no more than stirring the muddy water. I enjoy playing on ebay and once in a while I find irresistible buys. Shortly after getting into the PWS game, I found a battery powered sling psychrometer similar to Tom Talberts Bendix 566 (http://tobaccovilleweather.com/about.htm). Its easy to use and accurate (I think), but its analog, its old school! So, back to ebay. Ah Ha! An Amprobe THWD-2i Digital Sling Psychrometer at a very inviting price. Well, on an overcast day with 2 - 4 mph wind the Amprobe can fluctuate 2 1/2 degrees F. and over 5 % RH in ONE MINUTE! I don't think the Amprobe is "wrong" either. We talk about micro climates, I think you can witness nano climates. These instruments are used in the Heating/Air Conditioning Industry ie inside and I think they are also no more than a tool to reach a best possible accuracy. (Someone had 5 Brand New Taylor Instrument Companies Sling Psychrometers for sale and only two of us bid so we each got one in hand for under $15.00 but thats another story because I haven't even tried to use it yet.) I think that if my wife caught me with all these toys and I was only allowed to keep one, it would be the battery powered unit.

If I check my PWS for the past year on CWOP, they say my RH is 3 1/2% high. I will now agree that my station is reading high but I think I'll only crank in about 2%.
http://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/C6097?tile=10;humidity=1#dewpoint

FWIW

George

Offline kray1000

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Re: Dew Point at Madis/CWOP
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 07:00:22 AM »
If I check my PWS for the past year on CWOP, they say my RH is 3 1/2% high. I will now agree that my station is reading high but I think I'll only crank in about 2%.
http://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/C6097?tile=10;humidity=1#dewpoint
George,
Living on a lakeshore, your humidity should be reading slightly higher.  Your dew point temperature is roughly a degree higher, depending on the air temperature.  I would also expect your humidity to fluctuate, depending on your wind direction, because of the fact you're only partly surrounded by water.  I'm not sure I would change (offset) a value that's probably correct for your location.