Author Topic: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)  (Read 10731 times)

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Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
I strongly disagree with what Boris did, but I respect his decision. Only time will show if he will benefit and profit from this.

As I sort of expected, I have just been sent a free key from Boris so that I can keep on using the latest version as a developer. However I replied to him that I do not want to have any privileges and that I will only use that key if ALL users get free bug fixes (not new features, but at least bug fixes). Unless this is the case I will remain stuck with v3.2 and try to make 100% sure MB 3.2, the latest free version for everyone, works just fine with my template, so that no-one has to pay extra just because of Meteotemplate.

Offline Mattk

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2017, 07:00:06 PM »
.... Only time will show if he will benefit and profit from this....

That is a really bad way of looking at this, users will benefit and those that don't want to be users don't have to be users, they can always find somebody else with the capability of giving them what they expect for nothing.

As for the profit comment ..... a bit narky but those that want to do freeware, donation ware as a bit of a hobby etc feel free to do that but don't complain about it.     

Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2017, 07:05:41 PM »
Matt Im not complaining about it. I was just saying my opinion about it. I respect Boris's stance and told that to him as well. If thats what he wants to do, so be it. For me it means I will have to make sure that Meteotemplate API works with the latest version that is free for everyone because I dont want anyone having to pay extra just because of my template and I myself will not use the free key because I dont want any extra privileges and most importantly, I want to have the version for which I want to develop stuff.

Offline WessexWeather

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2017, 03:51:50 AM »
Here's my two-penneth...

I disagree that a "lifetime registration" licence should be changed, and think this is underhand and immoral. It should apply to new users only.

However, Meteobridge is a great device and is frequently updated. €10 a year is not a lot to ask for software that, to me at least, is so valuable, and way more so than running a PC 24/7. You would save this purely by savings on power consumption!

I just hope that Meteotemplate, if Jachym is not updating his Meteobridge, will continue to work with future Meteobridge updates.
Cheers,

Simon (WessexWeather)


Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2017, 06:43:46 AM »
Yes, I hope so too.

Currently I see no reason why I should make any changes to the API (although just in the latest MB update - v3.3, there is a minor fix related to the Meteotemplate API. It was not working 100% correctly and I emailed Boris and was told it will be fixed - and indeed it was, just that not for free anymore). But who knows what will be in the future and if I ever need to make changes it puts me into difficult situation because I would have to decide what to do. Most other developers (WU etc.) will of course ignore MB and leave it to the developer of MB to deal with it, but in this case I probably wont feel like that and then have to decide what to do. The API is now basically conserved - it cannot be changed and even though I dont see any problem with it right now, I cant tell what new features I will add in the future that will make this problematic.

Offline Mattk

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2017, 08:42:52 PM »
Does anybody have a link to this clause re "lifetime registration"

Offline merlinwx

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2017, 03:06:14 PM »
Here is the latest license agreement from wiki:

http://meteobridge.com/wiki/index.php/Meteobridge_License

Don't see any clause referring lifetime registration.  Nor do I see any detailed explanation of how SW "fixes" will be addressed such as the detail Boris offers here:

http://forum.meteohub.de/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12023

Might be nice for perspective users to know the hook upfront!
Davis Vantage Pro 2/Weather Display
Meteobridge 3.3/TP-MR3020/Belfryboy logger
WU-KCOCANON7/CWOP-DW5626

Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2017, 04:49:16 PM »
To be quite honest... Ive been using MB for over 6yrs and there were in fact no new features at all. The only new things were addition of a few networks including my template, but no real new features as such - which is understandable given the limited memory of the device.

I dont think many people will be willing to pay extra 20E/2yrs. Why...

There is currently a bug in the Meteotemplate update features, users like me who no longer get updates will not see a fix, but in fact this bug was only introduced in v3.3, which is also N/A for me so I dont really mind...

It is IMHO definitely not worth paying for the extra support and it is very unlikely there will be any new features, I dont even need any. The only useful thing would be memory, but that is not possible technically and is currently available as MB Pro

Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2017, 04:55:55 PM »
Thinking about it... there really was nothing new. Over the last 6yrs Ive been using it Boris added support for some new stations (something you dont care about as a new user) and he added a few  services, but it was possible even before using the HTTP request, just a bit more work. But otherwise everything I use was there - station updates, remote access, weather services, HTTP request, templates, tags... I cant even think of anything that could be added or that I would need extra.

Offline dolfs

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2017, 05:12:26 PM »
I bought MB in April of 2015 and I have a memory of this being a perpetual license as well. I did understand that I would not have to pay again. Having said that, I researched my old emails and found the receipt which does not include this information, but refers to the licensing terms "you accepted" on the licensing page when you purchased the license. I used the Internet archive to look for this license around that time and found it.

It does not contain the word perpetual, and I would argue that the license is not much of a license at all because it does not state what we are licensed to do, except evaluate or "use" (whatever that means exactly). It does spend almost all the text on explaining what the developer does not have to do and is not responsible for. As such, it is more of a warranty agreement and there is no mention in it of fixing problems, or providing updated functionality. Note that typical SW licenses spend a little more on the "what you are allowed to do with it", but are otherwise just as focused on promising nothing and removing liability.

Therefore it is my opinion that those of us who want or expect continued improvements have no basis (in this "license") to demand it. There is something to be said, however, for the precedent that such improvements and fixes have been provided, for free, at least since I have owned my license (April 2015). That has created an expectation. If Boris changes his mind about that, as he has, that may disappoint us, and the wisdom of that policy can be questioned, but I do not find it illegal. It is a little tacky to drop this without any lead time.

With respect to fixing bugs (which is not the same as new features), there is again no promise of that. On the other hand, when we all made a purchase we ostensibly did so based on the description of functionality of the software. To the extent that description does not match actual behavior (due to a bug), it is entirely reasonable to expect it to be fixed. After all, if it were not fixed (as a decision not to do so), it is basically false advertising.

The real problem comes over time. Since free improvements have been provided (in additional to bug fixes being incorporated) most of us now have a product that has features promised when we bought a license, as well as others we "received" since then. So valid claims w.r.t. bug fixing really only exist for the "original" features.

If one were to accept the "license" renewal, I would argue that, at that point, the "base" situation resets to whatever is advertised at that point, but arguably that is based on semantics vs intended meaning. If the fee is simple a recurring cost to keep the original license active, it would not reset things. If, on the other hand, it is a fee to "update to the latest version, along with 2 years of free updates" (essentially a discount to a new license), it would reset the situation. The language in the agreement is not clear enough, in my non-legal opinion, to make this distinction.

Overall I do not have a "legal" problem with the decision to require an additional fee every two years, provided this was clear at the time of purchase. Without that, as is the case for most of us so far, we bought a product that would only have limited life-span (2 years) unless we pay more later. Boris argues that the live-span is not limited, and technically this may be true, but practically it is not. It is like deciding to buy a car that comes for 4 years of free service and the manufacturer deciding, 2 years in, that it would only be 2 years of service and you now have to pay. Had you known that it was 2 years up front, you would have valued your initial purchase price differently and, perhaps, decided not to buy. Yes, you can continue to drive it, until there is a problem. At that point you are forced to accept the additional cost, but possibly years earlier than expected.

Overall, though, it seems extremely unwise that there is no "grand-father" provision for existing users. Of course had there been one, Boris would only start reaping the benefit of this new approach two years from now, from new purchasers and it might not fit his stated financial needs. On the other hand, the stated need arises from the increased support volume. Realistically, the need for support comes mostly from new users, or is "re-ignited" because of new features. Most existing users have their MB configured, it does what it needs to do, and they don't need support. Therefore, is the initial purchase price not enough to support these new users for 2 years?

Then there is MB PRO. I get the impression, although this may be entirely incorrect, that much of the energy is focused on this platform (between the two, not in comparison to other products). New features seem to be mostly for the PRO (and I understand that the regular version on TP-LINK HW has its limitations). I somehow doubt Boris is tracking development cost and support cost separately for both. If he were not, the statements on the cost as justification for the 2 year renewal is tenuous at best.

I get the impression that the primary target of MB was the user of the Davis line of products (it certainly seems to be the best supported). As such products are generally $700 or more, those users probably have less price sensitivity to the cost of MB. Adding in support for Ambient, Accurite etc. (the cheaper weather station platforms), may have added a solid base of additional income. Being cheaper station platforms, they probably have a wider base, but their users are likely, by and large, less sophisticated than Davis users. They probably may require some initial support, but not much after. They would be, however, quite price sensitive as even the initial cost of HW and SW exceeds or comes close to the station purchase price.

Then there is also the remainder of the product line that generates money, including licensing of the MB platform to companies such as AmbientWeather who sells the combination of license plus TP-LINK hardware under the product name "WeatherBridge". They charge $209 (May 2017), which is about double the cost of buying HW and SW license separately. I suspect that additional margin is mostly for Ambient, but who knows. Update: Ambient has confirmed to me that the licensing is with MB (and not Ambient) and thus is subject to the same introduction of recurring fees, which they believe is reasonable.

However, all that does not matter in that Boris can do what he wants, when he wants it, unless somebody is finding a legal argument to pursue (which I doubt exists) and is willing to back that up with legal action (which is no doubt cost prohibitive). Clearly, many existing users will not like this. I also have an email from the maker of at least one other weather product that MB can upload data for, stating that now that this recurring fee model has been added, he is contemplating dropping support for MB altogether. To be fair, that last opinion would likely not change, even if there was a grand-father provision. With an eye on the fact that significant further enhancements of the basic MB are unlikely (due to platform limitations), overall, my suggestion would be to remove the two year fee requirement, except perhaps for PRO users (although they paid much more, that is I suppose, mostly for hardware). Long term, that would probably be more beneficial to all, including Boris.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:51:07 PM by dolfs »
--dolf

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Offline Mattk

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2017, 05:43:30 PM »
I think dolfs has pretty much summed up the situation well (good post) as opposed to a few that are complaining with little to no substance about all of this. 

Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2017, 05:45:56 PM »
Hi Dolf,

yes! Exactly, I completely agree with you.

Boris can indeed do whatever he wishes to. In my opinion, all users should get the bug fixes - as long as MB is developed as such, i.e. as long as the bug fix is available. If it is available for those who pay extra, then the ones who are affected by this bug should get it as well.

New features - Im absolutely ok with the fact that only those who pay extra will get this. You are right in that it was nowhere in the license that this will be offered indefinitely.

If Boris wants to include even bug fixes only for users paying extra then I dont see it as very fair, but ok - but only as long as this is in the terms I agree to AT THE TIME of purchase. Just like you said (and I think I even said that before too), I have paid for MB and it had certain features and functionality. I do not want any extra features, if they are only available to paying users - fine with me. However if there is a bug/problem in the version I have, then I should get the bug fix as well. Otherwise the device is not doing what it was supposed to and what I paid for.

If it was in the license that there is a possibility a bug/problem will arise and the device could become useless and that I will have to pay extra to get it fixed, I would think twice about buying it in the first place.

My suspicion is also that this might actually be related to the MB Pro. Ive talked to 5 people who bought it and out of those 5, 4 had it replaced or sent for repair and based on the feedback on the official MB forum it seems to me it was maybe released a bit too early... obviously it is not as reliable as the standard version and likely not doing so well as Boris probably expected. That of course does not mean Boris cannot change the license of MB standard, but as we both said, this change should not affect already existing features, fixes released and created for paying users should be available for all whose version has this feature and if he really insists on the fact even bug fixes are only after you pay extra, it should only be relevant to those who buy Meteobridge from now on and are informed about this in the terms.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 06:52:48 PM by Jáchym »

Offline dolfs

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2017, 06:20:37 PM »
There would seem to be the following major cost components to supporting a product like MB:
  • Development cost
    • Original development of product or new functionality
    • Cost of tracking down bugs and writing/fixing code to address the issue
  • Support cost
    • Taking emails and phone calls, understanding the problem and supplying a help
    • Absorbing a problem report, deciding if it is truly a problem, or user/HW error, and scheduling a fix (see above).

Typically a purchase price is chosen to support development cost, plus support cost, for a typical product life span (say 5 years), assuming a certain minimum amount of purchases and an estimate of the amount of support needed. Whether the assumptions were valid or not, Boris chose a price when he initially launched MB. If tracked properly, he might now if his assumptions were correct or not.

Then development on MB PRO started. There was no doubt HW development cost, which I assume was worked into the price of the unit along with margin and cost of goods of the HW itself. Software development cost however, should be limited to what was added to an already existing code base for MB. The latter, assuming the assumptions used for pricing were correct, or better than actual, was already paid for (by now enough MB should have been sold to make this true). Cost for anything to fix a MB PRO feature that is also present in MB can/should arguably by allocated partly to both. Key here is that even if MB PRO did not exist, the bug may have needed to be fixed. Neither type of customer should have to benefit from the existence of the other. On the other hand, fixing a MB PRO specific issue should not cost MB users anything.

And here lies the issue I outlined. I doubt this is being tracked, and or forecasted, separately and Boris likely just looks at the overall cost of ongoing MB + MB PRO development and support. I am only thinking of the SW aspect of this. If MB PRO units are having HW problems as well (as suggested in another post; I have no personal knowledge of this), that leads to additional support costs (which, again, ought to be thought of as MB PRO related only, but I think are not separated out), and possibly additional cost of HW needs to be replaced.

Now also, it seems that Boris (smart bedded) has additional costs related to MB and MB PRO that many of us do not think about. Every MB unit "checks in" with a server, among other things to check licensing and whether or not a renewal is due. Also, MB comes preconfigured (if I remember correctly) to upload your data to meteohub servers for graphing. Initially your access to that is free, but even if it expires, unless you explicitly remove it, the uploads keep going (and as far as I know get stored). So there is a server farm with software on it that has operational costs, in addition to development and support costs. I am pretty sure this is shared among most, if not all products. Again, unless things are tracked separately, cost for that cannot be attributed to individual products. It is "the cost of doing business". Yet I am sure that as this cost rises, original assumptions about these costs are more and more likely to become invalid causing the company to look for relief from the problem. The result is normally price increases and that seems reasonable, except with regard to existing users that have been living under the impression that they are/were exempt from that.

At least in meteotemplate's case there seems to be an instance of a feature introduced before the licensing change, but with a bug in it fixed only in the product that requires one to accept the upgraded license (and paying money). That, to me, goes against what I described above. Had the whole meteotemplate functionality been introduced after the licensing change (ignoring for the moment any grand-fathering), it would be reasonable to require a new/upgraded/extended license first.

I agree that if a bug has been fixed, if the impetus was from another paying user and perhaps prompted with a problem of the MB PRO, but pertains to a feature originally present on the MB version than it should be provided. Implicitly charging a fee for something that was fixed with respect to an original feature, on behalf of a paying user, just because you can does not seem right. If you feel responsibility to fix something for a paying user, withholding it from original licensees does not seem right.
--dolf

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Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2017, 06:27:14 PM »
Just to make one thing clear - I am definitely not asking for things for free (in fact I can have the latest version for free anyway if I asked Boris given Im a developer and help Boris with developing MB indirectly), I understand there are costs and I think the 70E I paid for it is not low, but absolutely reasonable.

The only thing I have problem with is one scenario and I will use my template as an example, but this could of course be any other service or station firmware MB relies on.

Example:
A user likes Meteotemplate and asks me what SW I recommend they use to update the template. Given I have very good experience with MB I recommend it. This person downloads the trial version. They like it, it works perfectly with Meteotemplate. They read the T&C and decide they will pay 70 euros for the product to be able to use it with Meteotemplate. Fast forward 2 years. For whatever reason I need to make even just a small change in the API due to some changes in my template for example, because I want to add new features to my template etc. I contact Boris and inform him about the changes. Boris makes the necessary changes and releases an update. Now however, this original person has a problem. They bought MB because they wanted to use Meteotemplate and now there is a fix available but they cant get it, also something they were not aware of at the time they bought MB. They are left with a device which is not doing what it was doing when they bought it and a fix is available but only for additional payment, which was not something they were informed about when they decided to pay 70 euros and use it.

You could argue that it is not really Boris's fault that it stopped working. Yes and no. It is not his fault, but he has to expect that if his product relies on these external services/firmwares, such situation can (and will) happen. And in the end, if he decided not to support Meteotemplate, this person would never have purchased MB in the first place, so it is in his own interest to keep his product up to date.

I will now have to try to make sure I do not make any changes to the api, but even though I do not see any reason why I should change it now, who knows. Meteotemplate to a certain extent also depends on other scripts, I keep on developing it and adding new features and if I need to make a change... It puts me into difficult position now becuase I dont want the above outlined scenario to happen to people.

And also remember that unlike me, if this was the case of Weather Underground API, some major developer's firmware, they will not care at all what happens to users of MB, they might not even know MB supports them, these major services/manufacturers dont care.

Otherwise, even though Im not a fan of subscription-based model, Im ok with it. It is completely up to the developer to choose what pricing model they want to use and if Boris decided he wants to use this model then people will either agree and buy it, or not agree and not buy it. The only problem is the one outlined above. I personally will not be affected by it, I only post all this because I feel it is unfair towards some particular group of existing users. Im not asking for free service or something for my personal benefit.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 06:30:41 PM by Jáchym »

Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2017, 06:44:26 PM »
There would seem to be the following major cost components to supporting a product like MB:
  • Development cost
    • Original development of product or new functionality
    • Cost of tracking down bugs and writing/fixing code to address the issue
  • Support cost
    • Taking emails and phone calls, understanding the problem and supplying a help
    • Absorbing a problem report, deciding if it is truly a problem, or user/HW error, and scheduling a fix (see above).

Typically a purchase price is chosen to support development cost, plus support cost, for a typical product life span (say 5 years), assuming a certain minimum amount of purchases and an estimate of the amount of support needed. Whether the assumptions were valid or not, Boris chose a price when he initially launched MB. If tracked properly, he might now if his assumptions were correct or not.

Then development on MB PRO started. There was no doubt HW development cost, which I assume was worked into the price of the unit along with margin and cost of goods of the HW itself. Software development cost however, should be limited to what was added to an already existing code base for MB. The latter, assuming the assumptions used for pricing were correct, or better than actual, was already paid for (by now enough MB should have been sold to make this true). Cost for anything to fix a MB PRO feature that is also present in MB can/should arguably by allocated partly to both. Key here is that even if MB PRO did not exist, the bug may have needed to be fixed. Neither type of customer should have to benefit from the existence of the other. On the other hand, fixing a MB PRO specific issue should not cost MB users anything.

And here lies the issue I outlined. I doubt this is being tracked, and or forecasted, separately and Boris likely just looks at the overall cost of ongoing MB + MB PRO development and support. I am only thinking of the SW aspect of this. If MB PRO units are having HW problems as well (as suggested in another post; I have no personal knowledge of this), that leads to additional support costs (which, again, ought to be thought of as MB PRO related only, but I think are not separated out), and possibly additional cost of HW needs to be replaced.

Now also, it seems that Boris (smart bedded) has additional costs related to MB and MB PRO that many of us do not think about. Every MB unit "checks in" with a server, among other things to check licensing and whether or not a renewal is due. Also, MB comes preconfigured (if I remember correctly) to upload your data to meteohub servers for graphing. Initially your access to that is free, but even if it expires, unless you explicitly remove it, the uploads keep going (and as far as I know get stored). So there is a server farm with software on it that has operational costs, in addition to development and support costs. I am pretty sure this is shared among most, if not all products. Again, unless things are tracked separately, cost for that cannot be attributed to individual products. It is "the cost of doing business". Yet I am sure that as this cost rises, original assumptions about these costs are more and more likely to become invalid causing the company to look for relief from the problem. The result is normally price increases and that seems reasonable, except with regard to existing users that have been living under the impression that they are/were exempt from that.

At least in meteotemplate's case there seems to be an instance of a feature introduced before the licensing change, but with a bug in it fixed only in the product that requires one to accept the upgraded license (and paying money). That, to me, goes against what I described above. Had the whole meteotemplate functionality been introduced after the licensing change (ignoring for the moment any grand-fathering), it would be reasonable to require a new/upgraded/extended license first.

I agree that if a bug has been fixed, if the impetus was from another paying user and perhaps prompted with a problem of the MB PRO, but pertains to a feature originally present on the MB version than it should be provided. Implicitly charging a fee for something that was fixed with respect to an original feature, on behalf of a paying user, just because you can does not seem right. If you feel responsibility to fix something for a paying user, withholding it from original licensees does not seem right.

There is one positive and one negative thing about Boris that I noticed.

Negative - I am not sure to what extent Boris actually tests things. There were two updates of MB related to Mteotemplate. First was the actual introduction of the Meteotemplate feature into MB. Boris sent me an email it is ready and released it. And it did not work. It was pushed to people and it made their template updates stop. Now we come to the positive thing - Boris reacted relatively quickly and within a few days a fix was available. Second update was just recently and.... and it does not work again. I have it confirmed by two users already, the new functionality is not doing what it should and throws a red error. Im sure Boris will fix it again soon, but... And now what if I get an update to my device, it does not work and just before a fix is released, my license expires - and at this point it should also be emphasized that given how MB works, you are always pushed the latest version, you cannot choose not to update if you are still in the period when you can get them, so if he releases a new version, you will get it and if it does not work and a fix is not available before your license expires, you have a problem again.

Offline thomas

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2017, 08:30:47 PM »
As mentioned in early posts, if I had known there would be a fee every 2 years with MB, I would not have purchased it.  If the author comes out with a new version with some enhancements, and wants to charge for the upgrade I am ok with that.  I have a little Acer Aspire netbook purchased for $45 on Ebay  that has been running Cumulus 24 /7 for four years.  If it stays alive another year it is cheaper than MB and does more.

Offline Mattk

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2017, 08:50:22 PM »
As mentioned in early posts, if I had known there would be a fee every 2 years with MB, I would not have purchased it.

There's a 2 yearly update to cover ongoing updates if that is what you (the user) wishes to do, there is not a fee every 2 years with MB if you (the user) don't require future updates. The choice is entirely up to you (the user) to make and decide, if you opt out of any future enhancements then that is your choice but the MB is not going to stop because you opt out of this option.

Some people are trying to turn this decision into something that it is not.   

Offline dolfs

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2017, 09:07:59 PM »
You agreed my post is a good summary (I think so too  :-)), and I agree with you with regard to "updates" to functionality. I even am willing to agree to "updates" for the purpose of making fixes, provided that was made clear up front when purchasing the product.

The original licensing agreement that I, and many others, accepted, does not state either of these two scenarios. My point then was that based on that one cannot demand the updates of functionality, but that it is reasonable to expect the updates for the purpose of correction and the history over the last several years created and maintained a precedent for this. If one only desires the latter, and therefore choses not to pay for the former, that should be a viable choice. I am not saying that the license should demand that fixes be made at the request of such users if there was no other reason, but if the fix is made for/in the newer version, it should be available for such users as well. In other words, not a "guarantee to make fixes", but rather a "right to availability of fixes actually created".

The issue has been convoluted because updates for fixing are not released separately for the last "non-recurring fees" version of MB (3.2 I believe). Any future fixes can only be obtained from the generalized higher number versions. So that leaves those not interested in new features, having bought the license before May, without fixes, making it not really a viable choice. That is the essence of the problem and does not have to apply to new buyers, provided this would be stated up-front.

The cost of this recurring fee, or rather its affordability, is a non-starter argument for me, because this is a high subjective matter and could not be taken into account before buying (and it appears still cannot because a new buyer is not informed; can't confirm this because I am not prepared to buy another copy just to find out, but may be somebody has published about this).

To this day, the license agreement posted on the Wiki (which appears 3 or so years old and is, supposedly a copy of the one the software and cursory reading in my 3.2 copy seems to confirm this), does not mention that you'll pay again after 2 years if you want further fixes (let alone new features).

Based on all that I suggest to Boris:
  • Change the situation to grand-father in licenses bought before May, or maintain the 3.2 branch of his code and make available bug-fix only updates for the non-payers of the recurring license fees for every bug that gets fixed in the process of further development, as it pertains to 3.2
  • Change the license and wiki etc. to make it clear what will happen after 2 years and what the choices and consequences are at that point.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 09:13:30 PM by dolfs »
--dolf

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Offline Mattk

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2017, 09:21:48 PM »
One could also state that neither of those two scenarios were explicitly ruled out. The license/warranty acceptance does clearly state that the one off license activation is for the life of the device, this has not changed in anyway.

Offline dolfs

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2017, 09:33:08 PM »
Quote
One could also state that neither of those two scenarios were explicitly ruled out.
True, but this is why I mentioned the precedent created. Using the same logic one could also argue that no license agreement was needed at all. After all, if it was not stated that there was no warranty, it could be explained as there should be one (because the lack of it was not mentioned), or that there does not have to be one (because it was not mentioned as being available). So this sort of argument falls flat on its face in my opinion and this is why lawyers make a lot of money (although I am not sure one was involved in this license agreement).

Any buyer doing their homework would have known from forums etc. that updates/fixes were being provided. Also, in the extreme of your remark, it would imply that no bug fixes whatsoever were ever due. This goes against the "false advertising" principle that I mentioned. If someone bought a license, and there was in fact a bug at that time causing the product to not perform as described (this happens all the time, with all manner of products), despite the language in the license, and a fix was refused without further payment, that claim could be made. This is a largely artificial argument, because I have yet to see any product where the provider would behave that way (it would be extremely bad business practice).

Therefore, stated or not, there is a reasonable expectation of bug fixes (and not feature updates, even though we did get those too). One can then argue for how long such an expectation might be valid or reasonable, and an argument could be made that 2 years is long enough. The problem I have is that no such statement about duration exists or existed, and, out of the blue, was imposed on existing licensees.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 12:06:27 AM by dolfs »
--dolf

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Offline merlinwx

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2017, 12:09:53 PM »
Hypothetical question...if I buy MB SW today with v3.3 and 30 months from now my system reboots and tries to load v3.4 since I have "get newest on reboot" selected on the maintenance page.  What happens, does my TP-link not reboot until I pay for a new version or will it revert to v3.2 and reboot, or just fail to reboot?

Currently, I'm trying out the MB SW and have not decided to purchase.  Are there other options I should be considering?
Davis Vantage Pro 2/Weather Display
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Offline Jáchym

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM »
My license is expired and it reboots and loads 3.2

Offline wvdkuil

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2017, 12:36:51 PM »
Hypothetical question...if I buy MB SW today with v3.3 and 30 months from now my system reboots and tries to load v3.4 since I have "get newest on reboot" selected on the maintenance page.  What happens, does my TP-link not reboot until I pay for a new version or will it revert to v3.2 and reboot, or just fail to reboot?

Currently, I'm trying out the MB SW and have not decided to purchase.  Are there other options I should be considering?
At the meteobridge forum: http://forum.meteohub.de/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12023
Quote
In the future licenses will still be of unlimited life-time, but update service
will be limited to two years after having applied/purchased the license.

1. You can select any available version and use an USB-stick to let Meteobridge save that version and boot from the USB-stick
2. You can select any previous version and reboot with that version from the drop-down
3. After paying the extra 19 euro you get another two years of fixes and all releases for another two years.
4. Current existing users with a  2+ year old licence who do not want new versions will stay on 3.2

5. A new user like you who after testing now pays for a new licence will in two years have to make the decision:
5.1 to either continue to use the then latest version, as an example version 3.8,
5.2 continue to use his best previous version selected from the drop-down or booting from the USB-stick
5.3 or buy a new 2 years period for updates/fixes.

Wim

Offline merlinwx

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2017, 03:51:18 PM »
Hypothetical question...if I buy MB SW today with v3.3 and 30 months from now my system reboots and tries to load v3.4 since I have "get newest on reboot" selected on the maintenance page.  What happens, does my TP-link not reboot until I pay for a new version or will it revert to v3.2 and reboot, or just fail to reboot?

Currently, I'm trying out the MB SW and have not decided to purchase.  Are there other options I should be considering?
At the meteobridge forum: http://forum.meteohub.de/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12023
Quote
In the future licenses will still be of unlimited life-time, but update service
will be limited to two years after having applied/purchased the license.

1. You can select any available version and use an USB-stick to let Meteobridge save that version and boot from the USB-stick
2. You can select any previous version and reboot with that version from the drop-down
3. After paying the extra 19 euro you get another two years of fixes and all releases for another two years.
4. Current existing users with a  2+ year old licence who do not want new versions will stay on 3.2

5. A new user like you who after testing now pays for a new licence will in two years have to make the decision:
5.1 to either continue to use the then latest version, as an example version 3.8,
5.2 continue to use his best previous version selected from the drop-down or booting from the USB-stick
5.3 or buy a new 2 years period for updates/fixes.

Wim


Thx Wim.  I think I've got it now.  Great explanation! 
Davis Vantage Pro 2/Weather Display
Meteobridge 3.3/TP-MR3020/Belfryboy logger
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Offline docbee

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Re: No More Meteobridge Support (WIthout annual fees any way..)
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2017, 10:02:32 AM »
Wow, what an enthusiastic thread!

Although I can understand that one might expect not just to have a perpetual license (which it still is) but also to get life long updates, I am a bit astonished that Meteobridge is now called ransome ware etc, just for the fact that free updates will only be there for the first 2 years.

Just assume I would have to end development of Meteobridge for some reason. Would that also be unfair to the users, that I don't provide new updates until I fall into my (then hopefully well deserved) grave? I really think life-long free update service is not from this world and it has never been promised in any way.

License terms have not changed with the new policy on updates. Meteobridge only asks for this when IP address in the LAN has changed, because it then thinks unit might have got a new owner and wants him make aware of the license terms. License terms is mostly about the GPLed base components, which need to be mentioned.

As not being a native speaker I don't understand the full extent of not so nice attributes given to me in this thread, but as said it still leaves me a bit wondering. I hope we can still work in a constructive mode in this forum.

Regards,
Boris
founder of smartbedded.com - home of meteohub, meteoplug, meteobridge, meteostick