WXforum.net
General Weather/Earth Sciences Topics => Earth Sciences => Topic started by: ValentineWeather on February 08, 2017, 07:46:50 AM
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With all the news, much FAKE being reported this days this came out yesterday from capital hill.
I'm sure this will be marginalized by the critics to ignore whistle blowers.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/07/federal-scientist-cooked-climate-change-books-ahead-obama-presentation-whistle-blower-charges.html
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Corruption runs deep. Not surprised, as the left is heavily invested in solar arrays and alternative energy. Many here know about how the thermometers are placed over hot tarmac.
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This is what I call slow down:
- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69°F (0.94°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 1880–2016 record.
- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57°F (1.43°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18°F (0.10°C).
(Note that the second hottest was 2015...)
- Record high temperatures over land surfaces were measured across Far East Russia, Alaska, far western Canada, a swath of the eastern United States, much of Central America and northern South America, southern Chile, much of eastern and western Africa, north central Siberia, parts of south Asia, much of southeast Asia island nations and Papua New Guinea, and parts of Australia, especially along the northern and eastern coasts. No land areas were cooler than average for the year.
- During 2016, the globally-averaged sea surface temperature was 1.35°F (0.75°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record
- Recent trends in the decline of Arctic polar sea ice extent continued in 2016. When averaging daily data from the National Snow and Ice Data Center, and noting that there was an unanticipated sensor transition during the year, the estimated average annual sea ice extent in the Arctic was approximately 3.92 million square miles, the smallest annual average in the record.
- The annual Antarctic sea ice extent was the second smallest on record, behind 1986
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This is what I call slow down:
This is what I call #FAKEDATA
Worthless as bosoms on a bore hog!
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Just like you call this fake data, I all your arguments fake as well, just lobby from oil companies and others who benefit from denying climate change
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I think the answer is somewhere inbetween. It has warmed from the last ice age, but nature is cycling too. The arctic waters have been less ice free even recently before the industrial Co2 scare. The Norse settled Greenland from Iceland during a warm period sailing now iced over land and waters.
I also think books have been cooked to support the continuing hysteria. If you are not onboard funding is removed. Its easy to get scientist to go with the flow since funding comes from the governments and if you disagree your livelihood of scientific research goes unfunded.
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Just published today.... to show you Im not picking up stuff that "suits" me... Im just using the latest info...
On Thursday, areas near the North Pole are predicted to be 10 to 15 degrees warmer than normal (which is about minus-20), which is near the melting point. This may mark the third occasion since November and the fourth time in just over a year that temperatures have warmed to this uncommon winter level near the Pole.
A recent study in the scientific journal Nature said that, since the late 1950s, warmth of this intensity has occurred only about once or twice a decade. Due to a reduction in sea ice and warming winter temperatures, such warm events are expected to increase in frequency, the study said.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/89194870/hurricaneforce-atlantic-storm-to-push-north-pole-to-melting-point-in-winter
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You can move thermometers a short distance and get warmer readings. I can move mine around my yard and see a rise of 5 degrees easy. We are to take the word of something we have no personal knowledge of how these reports are being propagated, and if it's non partisan. The slow down of rising temperatures is being ignored.
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This is absurd, you see these results and so you say that thermometers were moved, even though you have absoutely no evidence that in this particular case, at these particular stations this happened.
And I can argue back with the exact same logic. Yes, temps can be quite different when you move the thermometer. So I could say that the difference and trend could be even more significant, but since they moved the thermometers (as you suggest), they moved them to a colder place, just a few meters away, to mask the true impact of global warming.
You said it yourself - moving thermometer makes a big difference. Just that like me you have no evidence that in this particular case this happened and if it did, you dont know which direction the temperature was biased.
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I am not saying the thermometer was moved... I am saying it could have been, or was the data taken from a thermometer that did not exist 50 yrs ago, or whenever they claim the period of time was that they are using to support the hypothesis. Did the landscape change? Did the ground become propagated with buildings nearby, or runways? Have the trees been taken out of the area? This will affect the end result, and I believe that almost no landscape has remained untouched over a period of X.
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I 100% agree with everything you say, just that all your arguments only tell us "it could and most likely was somehow biased" - but whether the reality is that global warming is not so significant, or the other way around (it is even worse), is the question none of us knows the answer to.
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what all this talk of funding again?
there are plenty of climate scientists around the world who do not rely on funding to show research of global warming
I think you need to come up with a better work story, its sounding like a stuck record
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You can move thermometers a short distance and get warmer readings. I can move mine around my yard and see a rise of 5 degrees easy. We are to take the word of something we have no personal knowledge of how these reports are being propagated, and if it's non partisan. The slow down of rising temperatures is being ignored.
Nobody, least of all the professionals of the world's weather/meteo services (like Jáchym), are "moving" the mutha effen AWOS/ASOS's instruments around to bias the WX data readings, in order to fulfill the feverdreams of the world's climate denier nutcases.
There are very strict siting protocols for positioning official meteorological instruments. And non-professional ones like ours, if you'd just read, for example, the CWOP guide, or even the one packed with your WS.
You can even verify the positioning of almost any WX instrument worldwide by either visiting it yourself (easy enough for local airports, etc). They are seldom moved.
Or by using some of the greatest instruments yet devised: satellite images, often freely available from many sources; you can get a WS's L/L and pull up a map/chart/satimg and zoom right in to it. Verify it yourself.
Using factual, objective data and methods. Just like the pros do (well, not quite, they are far more accurate, and they have to run that ol' "peer review" gauntlet).
BTW, those satellites, and all of our other NOAA/NASA/etc stuff is perhaps some the best, highest use of our tax dollars there is (urkurk, will not take cheap shots...).
I use sat images often, one use is to compare my charts and eyeballs with them, for nav aboard while underway (some of the nice, more modern than mine, chartplotters integrate stored or real-time access sat images (of varying age of course), very nice, I just use a tablet or laptop).
And 'planning' ahead for a Pacific voyage (maybe...). Also to follow TIGHAR, one of my fav (small) time sinks, checking out Nikumaroro/Gardner Island. :-)
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BTW, Jáchym, waiukuweather, and others around here, keep up the good fight; don't back down, the same kind flailed away on Galileo, Fleming, et al., too.
And another 'BTW': all the official thermometers around me for 200+ miles are hovering (AO ~1230h) around 90°F, plus or minus a few. Many more daily records will be set.
This has happened quite a few times this winter, and it ain't effen normal! Mine is reading 85°F ATT and there's still 2-3 hours of solar heating to go (it's very sunny).
A/C's going like crazy, just paid my electric bill, hell yes I'm going to go solar PV panels. Who wants to mess with the bills, or a diesel genset.
Heck, I even put in a few Solar gas turbine gensets long ago, whooee those little puppies could scream like a J79 :shock:.
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Hi John,
thanks :D
Though I want to say one more thing. It might look like me, you and Brian are one of the very few in support of GW, however I got many PMs, even from people you probably wont think would say this, that they think the same, just dont want to "fight" here.
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What you said with the thermometers exactly illustrates the logic people often use.
Look:
Facts:
- thermometers can sometimes be moved - TRUE
- moving a thermometer can have substantial effect on the measured values - TRUE INDEED
- it could introduce bias to the overall results - TRUE
However, here is the problem:
- thermometers were moved to a place that is warmer and so caused these alarming high temperatures - NO EVIDENCE -> YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE ABOVE
Just like saying
- thermometers were moved to a place that is colder and so the reality is even more alarming
I see this so often, people say facts, however base their conclusion on interpretatino of these facts which is either subjective or without any evidence
Please post a link to studies that prove that thermometers were moved and were moved so that they always measure higher temperatures.
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Hi John,
thanks :D
Though I want to say one more thing. It might look like me, you and Brian are one of the very few in support of GW, however I got many PMs, even from people you probably wont think would say this, that they think the same, just dont want to "fight" here.
Heck, Jáchym, I'll 'fight' anywhere anymore, figuratively anyway, heheh.
I'm pushing 70 (yeow :shock:), don't much give a chit noway nohow. And renewing my LTC has nothing to do with that. :twisted:
It must be the ornery Irish/Scots/English/FrenchCanadien/German/Finn/Pole/Chippewa/whatever gene pool mix. :-x
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What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources. It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations. The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.
They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming. The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming. So, it's happening. It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world. Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.
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what all this talk of funding again?
there are plenty of climate scientists around the world who do not rely on funding to show research of global warming
I think you need to come up with a better work story, its sounding like a stuck record
Do you have sources?
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What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources. It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations. The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.
They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming. The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming. So, it's happening. It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world. Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.
Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.
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Exactly Ken.
And prohibiting the climate specialists from communicating with the public and canceling all the funds is not going to solve the problem. It is not going to have major consequences in the next decade or so (although it can also influence the extremes and disasters), but later when it will it is going to be too late to do something. Some people obviously only care about themselves and about their economical benefit and they dont really have to worry what is going to be in a more distant future - and I guess I dont have to say who Im talking about now. (How old is he?....)
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If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.
If you want people to install solar arrays, make it affordable, so that everyone can have them on their roof, and not just elites looking to cash in.
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If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.
No-one is saying China shouldn't do anything AS WELL
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What I've seen and read about is that the datasets were reprocessed (smoothed) based on additional data added from more sources. It is mostly satellites that map the 2m temperatures over the ocean (otherwise very sparse data from buoys and ships), and corroborate land-based measurements from fixed location stations. The refining of the data is no 'jobbing the data to make a conclusion' as is implied by several of the comments above, but simply reprocessing using valid statistical mechanisms additional datapoints from other sources.
They all still point to a unprecedented warming that strongly correlates to the CO2 level rise since the start of the industrial age as a major cause of the warming. The alarming decline in Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice, and global receding of glaciers all bear witness to the warming. So, it's happening. It's not productive to advance arguments that the data is 'wrong' or 'over manipulated' for nefarious purposes -- data is data, it doesn't care what you believe, the analysis conforms to the observable reality of a warming world. Let's get on with fixing the issue before your grandchildren have to abandon coastal cities due to sea-level rise.
Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.
Yes, and I could easily argue the data is indeed manipulated, by the lobbying oil companies, car manufacturers etc. - to make it look less significant. I have as much evidence for this as you have for the data being manipulated in the other way.
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If you want to stop CO2, talk to China.
No-one is saying China shouldn't do anything AS WELL
China is where the head of the issue of CO2 is shown to be taking place. We are shut down here, and we are still melting according to the "data".
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Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:
CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6
And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!
Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though
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EU: 6.7 and going down
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Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.
The data was reprocessed/re-analyzed as new datasets became available from various sources. This led to the same 'we're warming' conclusion with CO2 concentrations being the majority contributor.
There's some excellent analysis being done and graphics produced by Zach Labe, PhD candidate, UC Irvine (http://sites.uci.edu/zlabe/graduate-research/). He is regularly posting updated graphics on Twitter (@ZLabe (https://twitter.com/ZLabe)). He also publishes the code used for the graphics on GitHub so you can easily see his data sources and analysis method.
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Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:
CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6
And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!
Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though
What a convenient but meaningless statistic :roll: You can't compare per capita numbers when the economic demographic of the two countries are so very different.
How about per $ of GDP which better represents economic activity? Per the CIA Factbook the per capita GDP in the USA is $57,300 and China $15,400, a factor of 3.72. The per capita CO2 ratio is only 2.17, so each $ of GDP in China generates way more CO2 than in the USA.
The USA has done a lot to reduce emissions, unfortunately IMHO some of that reduction has backfired by moving manufacturing to China where it is generating more emissions that it did here. How many of those solar panels being being installed in the US are manufactured using coal generated electricity in China I wonder?
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So what is the conclusion, that the amount US is generating is negligible?
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Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:
CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6
And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!
Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though
Jáchym and the other combatants,
I just ran across some numbers on what the Chinese are/have done on solar PV electricity production, both the major commercial, and individual, installations. Whatever their driving motivations are...they have ramped up coal power plants, but I'm thinking they're thinking it's just temporary until they have a majority of alt-energy sources.
In a recent year (I'll look it up if I can find it), 2014, 2015?, they doubled, in one year, their total PV capacity. The Indians, Euros, and many others too. Even Texas has gone to the top of wind and solar in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China) (close enough)
Wikipedia has hundreds of pages of solid info on alt-energy, just use the 'index' linkage at the bottom of most pages..
As far as comments about affordable PV or alternative power, prices have come way down and continue to fall. No one needs to pay an inflated, gouge-level price for the panels, etc., shop around.
I myself cannot 'afford' the somewhat inflated $30-50K price of a 'retailed' home solar installation, no way. So I've done lots of research, designed an expandable system (ground-mounted) that starts small and is flexible. And will grow it every few months until I reach a point when I can be "off-grid" much of the time.
When LI-or-? battery power storage gets cost effective enough, it will be almost all of the time. And save some serious $$, the solar ROI continues to shorten and grow.
With no subsidies or whatever, all out of my pocket.
I'm buying most of it online, sure; and prices will likely continue to fall. And I do buy some stuff direct, or via Newegg, etc., from China. Don't like it, but no alternative, our 'leaders' have sold us out for decades (hell, I've caught crap for years for having only domestic motor vehicles, while family is mostly Toyota minded).
One 'interesting' observation, the last few months it seems some parcels are getting some Customs/PO lookovers (somewhere).
And the Chinese shippers, in the last month or so, are stuffing some pro-Chinese propaganda leaflet-type literature in the envelopes/boxes :shock:. Yikes!
Due to political machinations by certain 'pols/people', selling any excess power to the grid isn't even allowed(!, AFAIK) via a net-metering or FIT/PPA (and they're doing the same with "Net neutrality" internet, rigging the system).
Even my municipal (co-op) power company wants nothing to do with it #-o.
One other thing. The extremely backward, Luddite views of a certain political group and about 30% of the pop has, and will continue to, put the US at an insurmountable competitive disadvantage in these and many other technologies. We're giving up, we've given up, our former world dominance in many areas, and fall even further behind year after year. Head-in-sand doesn't get it today (never did).
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Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:
CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6
And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!
Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though
Jáchym and the other combatants,
I just ran across some numbers on what the Chinese are/have done on solar PV electricity production, both the major commercial, and individual, installations. Whatever their driving motivations are...they have ramped up coal power plants, but I'm thinking they're thinking it's just temporary until they have a majority of alt-energy sources.
In a recent year (I'll look it up if I can find it), 2014, 2015?, they doubled, in one year, their total PV capacity. The Indians, Euros, and many others too. Even Texas has gone to the top of wind and solar in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China) (close enough)
Wikipedia has hundreds of pages of solid info on alt-energy, just use the 'index' linkage at the bottom of most pages..
As far as comments about affordable PV or alternative power, prices have come way down and continue to fall. No one needs to pay an inflated, gouge-level price for the panels, etc., shop around.
I myself cannot 'afford' the somewhat inflated $30-50K price of a 'retailed' home solar installation, no way. So I've done lots of research, designed an expandable system (ground-mounted) that starts small and is flexible. And will grow it every few months until I reach a point when I can be "off-grid" much of the time.
When LI-or-? battery power storage gets cost effective enough, it will be almost all of the time. And save some serious $$, the solar ROI continues to shorten and grow.
With no subsidies or whatever, all out of my pocket.
I'm buying most of it online, sure; and prices will likely continue to fall. And I do buy some stuff direct, or via Newegg, etc., from China. Don't like it, but no alternative, our 'leaders' have sold us out for decades (hell, I've caught crap for years for having only domestic motor vehicles, while family is mostly Toyota minded).
One 'interesting' observation, the last few months it seems some parcels are getting some Customs/PO lookovers (somewhere).
And the Chinese shippers, in the last month or so, are stuffing some pro-Chinese propaganda leaflet-type literature in the envelopes/boxes :shock:. Yikes!
Due to political machinations by certain 'pols/people', selling any excess power to the grid isn't even allowed(!, AFAIK) via a net-metering or FIT/PPA (and they're doing the same with "Net neutrality" internet, rigging the system).
Even my municipal (co-op) power company wants nothing to do with it #-o.
One other thing. The extremely backward, Luddite views of a certain political group and about 30% of the pop has, and will continue to, put the US at an insurmountable competitive disadvantage in these and many other technologies. We're giving up, we've given up, our former world dominance in many areas, and fall even further behind year after year. Head-in-sand doesn't get it today (never did).
Our governor in Oklahoma made damn sure solar couldn't be sold back to the grid. As a matter of fact, they are trying to institute a tax for those users of solar energy by charging a 'fee' for those people to remain on the grid.
Our governor is dumb. First the earthquakes. Now this. Can't wait until she's term-limited out of office next year.
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Our governor in Oklahoma made damn sure solar couldn't be sold back to the grid. As a matter of fact, they are trying to institute a tax for those users of solar energy by charging a 'fee' for those people to remain on the grid.
Our governor is dumb. First the earthquakes. Now this. Can't wait until she's term-limited out of office next year.
Yep, BigOkie, can't find refs, but several states have either done it, or are trying to, penalize and discriminate against alt energy, even punitive taxes.
Incredibly shortsighted and stupid. Although it is a very complex issue, and certain reasonable constraints are probably OK under certain thresholds and limits.
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the thing the deniers in the USA need to know is that other countries, that have government departments to research their own countries data and world data, i.e no funding conflicts of interest etc, show global warming is happening, and is unprecedented in earths climate for 1000's of years
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This is what I call slow down:
- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69°F (0.94°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 1880–2016 record.
- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57°F (1.43°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18°F (0.10°C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.
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This is what I call slow down:
- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69°F (0.94°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 1880–2016 record.
- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57°F (1.43°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18°F (0.10°C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.
Yep. I bet they know what killed the Dinosaurs too. :D
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In closure and back on subject instead of arguing over meaningless (COOKED, FAKE, BAD) data being manipulated for profit of 100's of billions yearly.
Further reading can be seen here: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-05/climategate-2-noaa-whistleblower-claims-world-leaders-fooled-fake-global-warming-dat
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This is what I call slow down:
- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69°F (0.94°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 1880–2016 record.
- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57°F (1.43°C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 1880–2016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18°F (0.10°C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.
Rather than disparaging the idea, how about learning about how it was done (https://www.climate.gov/maps-data/primer/past-climate). Many disciplines are used to try and understand paleoclimate before human measurements began in the late 1800s.