Topic: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts

[miraculon]

I heard about this on one of the Ham shows (amateurlogic.tv) and also saw it on the ARRL website: http://www.arrl.org/news/nist-fy-2019-budget-would-eliminate-wwv-and-wwvh

Beyond Amateur Radio and Shortwave listening, the time signals serve as precise reference beacons for other purposes such as calibration to a known frequency standard.

A potentially larger issue would be WWVB going off the air. According to Wikipedia, there are over 50 million "atomic clock" receivers that would be affected. I have several wall clocks and even my wristwatch (Casio Waveceptor) would be affected and no longer synchronize to the accurate time source. There seems to be some controversy in some Ham forums about whether WWVB is also affected, but there are quotes from the NIST that seem to support this notion that the WWVB signal would also be affected.

In 2011, NIST estimated the number of radio clocks and wristwatches equipped with a WWVB receiver at over 50 million.

There is a petition on whitehouse.gov for this issue. This message is on the petition site:

NIST station WWV and sister stations are among the oldest radio stations in the United States, having been in continuous operation since May 1920. The station has transmitted the official US Time for nearly 100 years, and is an instrumental part in the telecommunications field, ranging from broadcasting to scientific research and education. Additionally, these stations transmit marine storm warnings from the National Weather Service, GPS satellite health reports, and specific information concerning current solar activity, and radio propagation conditions. These broadcasts are an essential resource to the worldwide communications industry. This petition requests continued funding of these stations be maintained into the 21st century and beyond to ensure future operations.

I signed the petition and emailed my congressman about this.

I realize that this isn't directly "weather related", but I believe that some of the weather station consoles have "atomic clock" capabilities that synchronize the time.

Greg H.

[nincehelser]

A potentially larger issue would be WWVB going off the air. According to Wikipedia, there are over 50 million "atomic clock" receivers that would be affected. I have several wall clocks and even my wristwatch (Casio Waveceptor) would be affected and no longer synchronize to the accurate time source. There seems to be some controversy in some Ham forums about whether WWVB is also affected, but there are quotes from the NIST that seem to support this notion that the WWVB signal would also be affected.

From my reading, there's no reason to think WWVB is exempted from these proposed cuts.

If we want more support from the general public, we should be telling them their gadgets are at risk of not working.

I'll drop a note to Acurite to see if they have any info... they sell a number of those WWVB-synchronized clocks.

[miraculon]

Thanks, nincehelser.

Greg H.

[galfert]

I have a couple of clocks that receive a radio controlled clock signal from Denver, Colorado I think it is. How do I know if my clocks will be affected? Are there more than one radio signals to do this function or are we tall taking about "The" same and only atomic clock radio signal?

My clocks:
Sony clock radio ICFC1PJ
Ambient Weather analog wall clock with radio controlled clock RC-1400WB

I just don't know what WWV or WWVB is. More details please. Is that what my clocks use?

[nincehelser]

I have a couple of clocks that receive a radio controlled clock signal from Denver, Colorado I think it is. How do I know if my clocks will be affected? Are there more than one radio signals to do this function or are we tall taking about "The" same and only atomic clock radio signal?

My clocks:
Sony clock radio ICFC1PJ
Ambient Weather analog wall clock with radio controlled clock RC-1400WB

I just don't know what WWV or WWVB is. More details please. Is that what my clocks use?

That would be WWVB.  Lots of information about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

WWVB is intended for machines to get the time.  WWV sends a time signal meant for human ears.

[nincehelser]

This is what WWV sounds like:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tVH6TqXG0w[/youtube]

[chief-david]

I believe that every clock in our district runs off the atomic clock. We have an antenna on the roof and the receiver sends a 13 mHz signal to every clock in the building. All buildings have that set up.

The only good thing about that is that kids can't tell time on an analog clock. But the clock in my room is covered with a sign that says "Time will pass, Will You?"

[galfert]

Thank you for the WWV and WWVB lesson. Makes sense now.

I suppose if WWVB goes away one potential alternative is to use RDS.

I have two Sangean radios that synchronize time via RDS. They are both really nice.
CL-100 - Weather Radio (in the kitchen so as to not get basted by alerts...I still hear them though which good)
RCR-20 - Bluetooth clock radio (my kids each have one in their rooms)

I find it very annoying to have clocks with the wrong time. So clocks that don't set themselves in my home go unused. Like the microwave and the stove. I like that the Cable box  gets time via cable service.

If WWVB were to go away we would need new clocks. Another method besides RDS is with IoT devices new clocks can then get time via the Internet NTP. That would be a potentially good replacement for WWVB. My Harmony remote always has the right time via its IoT hub.

We threw out our analog TVs...well maybe it is now time to throw out our WWVB clocks. They should set a time way in the future to plan for this sunset like they did TV analog broadcasts.

[CW2274]

The only good thing about that is that kids can't tell time on an analog clock.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. That's even sorrier than being clueless on how to use a rotary phone.

[chief-david]

no one should need a rotary phone anymore. There are rotary phone apps.
Analog clocks are still in use.

[CW2274]

no one should need a rotary phone anymore.

Prolly not.
Not being able to read a "normal" clock is utterly ridiculous. Hopefully by the time the "child" gets to his or her 20's they'll have taught themselves. I don't see analog clocks going anywhere, anytime soon, but I may be completely wrong. Could you imagine Bobby or Suzy going to a job interview and the potential employer ask Bobby or Suzy to "tell the time" and gets nothing but .... 

[vreihen]

GPS chipsets are dime a dozen these days, and will provide a much more accurate time source than WWVB that only reaches the coasts through nighttime sky propagation.  Time to put WWV out to pasture, unless ARRL wants to take it over and fund it.....

[galfert]

GPS doesn't work so well inside buildings. I have an AT&T microcell and unless I put next to a window it doesn't work because it needs to get GPS location signal to be allowed to work. Apparently AT&T put a geofence on the device so that it wouldn't work outside of the US. They didn't want the microcell being used out of the country because they would miss out on all the roaming revenue.

I don't think GPS for time signal is a good solution based on this experience. Another similar experience is when I'm in a parking garage and I ask my car navigation for directions it doesn't have a GPS lock so it doesn't work till I get out of the parking garage.

[nincehelser]

GPS doesn't work so well inside buildings. I have an AT&T microcell and unless I put next to a window it doesn't work because it needs to get GPS location signal to be allowed to work.

That is true.  A GPS antenna needs a decent view of the sky.  Tree canopy alone can cause you a lot of grief.

The signal of WWVB penetrates into buildings much easier.  If enough people complain about weak reception, they can turn up the wattage on the transmitter with ease (it's been done before).

[orchidman]

no one should need a rotary phone anymore.

Except when you loose all power.  Cell phones don't work everywhere and for some reason, battery charges don't last for ever    I still have a yellow rotary hanging on the wall in the garage as a backup for the next ice storm.

[galfert]

Some LECs (ILECs and CLECs) no longer interpret rotary pulse dialing. They are DTMF only.  So I would say it is better to have a corded push button set in case of emergency. When was the last time you actually tried dialing with a rotary phone and it worked?

This reminded me as a kid how I learned to quickly dial numbers just using the flash hook method. I impressed my friends how I could call without using the numbers. Just one of the things I picked up reading 2600 magazine and calling BBSs with my 300 baud modem and Apple IIe.

[nincehelser]

Remember when these where latest and greatest?

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[orchidman]

Remember when these where latest and greatest?

Yep.  Rotary is in the garage and the right pictured push button is on the kitchen wall. 
I'm on the bleeding edge for some things and others, hanging on for dear life on the tail end.

[galfert]

nincehelser,

Those were the greatest. But I had something cooler. I had a modified touchpad that added extra tones. A, B, C, D tones used by the military's phone network. You could pretent to be able to call into the armed forces.

Google Autovon phone to see pictures. Looks just like the traditional AT&T bush button phones but with extra keys. I'm not sure why they aren't labeled ABCD because in technical terms they were ABCD but I guess they got marked differently.

[Jasiu]

Except when you lose all power.  Cell phones don't work everywhere and for some reason, battery charges don't last for ever    I still have a yellow rotary hanging on the wall in the garage as a backup for the next ice storm.

That's more a matter of whether you have a POTS line rather than something digital that requires an additional electricity source. Touch tone with POTS still works when the juice goes out.

Our legacy phone company (Verizon) continually bugs me to upgrade to their fiber-based digital service but I've been hanging onto the POTS line almost for spite's sake. If I ever get rid of it, I'm getting rid of it altogether as 98% of the calls we get are junk. Extremely grateful for caller ID and a phone smart enough to use a different ringtone for recognized numbers. 

What does this have to do with weather again??    Oh, yeah, anyone else old enough to remember calling local numbers for weather and time?

[galfert]

Our legacy phone company (Verizon) continually bugs me to upgrade to their fiber-based digital service but I've been hanging onto the POTS line almost for spite's sake. If I ever get rid of it, I'm getting rid of it altogether as 98% of the calls we get are junk. Extremely grateful for caller ID and a phone smart enough to use a different ringtone for recognized numbers. 

What does this have to do with weather again??    Oh, yeah, anyone else old enough to remember calling local numbers for weather and time?

We don't need to be on topic regarding weather in this subforum...this is Chit-Chat sub.

So back to phones...

Besides your different ringer phone you should set up Nomorobo to deal with those annoying calls. All that is required is that your phone service has simultaneous ring feature. With simultaneous ring you set up your phone service to ring the Nomorobo service (after you set up your free account they tell you what number to set the simultaneous ring to). Then when a junk call comes in the call is automatically intercepted by Nomorobo. It only rings once. So now I never pick up on the first ring.

Nomorobo is free too. Nothing to buy. Just set it up.
https://www.nomorobo.com/

I do remember calling weather and time numbers. I remember calling the school to find out if it was going to be a snow day too. And a bunch of other stuff like that.

[alanb]

...
What does this have to do with weather again??    Oh, yeah, anyone else old enough to remember calling local numbers for weather and time?

...
Yes, I used to dial that time/weather number often back in the 70's. Was the best way to get a reasonably accurate time for the DST clock changes. I still remember the number ... 366-7212.

I even remember back when I was a kid, the oak crank phone with a horn mouth piece and separate ear piece hanging on the dining room wall of our farm house. If I remember right, our "number" on our party line was something like 2 longs and a short. It was great fun when you heard a different ring for someone else on your line to pick up and listen to what your neighbors were talking about. You had to go through the operator to call anyone outside your party. To get the operator, you gave one long ... 2 or 3 cranks if I recall.

[WeatherHost]

I remember when people set their own clocks too instead of having something a thousand miles away do it for them.

[alanb]

When touch tone phones first came out, if you used tone dialing the phone company would add $1.00 a month to your phone bill, supposedly to offset the cost of running the additional equipment needed to support this new feature. And until deregulation, the phone company actually owned your phone. Part of your monthly bill was for "phone rent". If you added a second phone, you had to pay more. They included this additional touch tone charge for several years until someone blew the whistle on them by proving that it cost them more to maintain the old pulse dialing feature than it did to support tone dialing.

[CW2274]

This reminded me as a kid how I learned to quickly dial numbers just using the flash hook method. I impressed my friends how I could call without using the numbers.

Oh wow, yes, forgot that! Even better, I didn't need the dime at the pay phone!