Topic: Davis 6250 Vantage Vue linking to computer

[DaculaWeather]

While I don't have the retail experience, I can tell you that it is expensive to develop any product. I was a project manager for a web based maintenance management software system, and you're right, there are all kinds of hidden expenses that most people don't even think about. Even things like insurance benefits, office supply expenses, tons of R&D, thousands of hours of programming, warranty expenses, the list goes on and on.

I personally think we got a hell of a deal. 

[Bushman]

I think the bottom line here is that the novice user looking to get a decent weather station generally doesn't have the skill/knowledge/desire to start off by piecing a system together.

I agree.  Which is why I ordered the logger with Weatherlink from the get-go.  I did however, look into what it would take to interface it w/o the logger.

[Bushman]

Sorry guys - go look over at the 2.4 gHz stuff being devised for radio control aircraft/helis.  The big vendors are being undercut by orders of magnitude by the Chinese.  And for the record, I have been involved in commercial HW/SW development so I do know its costs.

[dalecoy]

Sorry guys - go look over at the 2.4 gHz stuff being devised for radio control aircraft/helis.  The big vendors are being undercut by orders of magnitude by the Chinese.  And for the record, I have been involved in commercial HW/SW development so I do know its costs.

OK, so if you did develop a logger, compatible with the Davis interface:

A.  How many would you expect to sell per year?

B.  At what retail selling price?

[Bushman]

See - that's the thing.  I personally feel there is little upside in a competing logger.    There is simply  too small a market and it is far too specialized.  What makes a whole lot more sense to me is to sell aftermarket sensors.  The spec and protocol is published and the RF devices are extremely cheap - about $20 bucks if you use Maxstream and a whole lot less if you use some other foreign brand.  Use simple 1-Wire sensors and it is very cheap. I think you could make your own remote temp device  and sell them very, very  profitably for about half of what Davis charges. 

[Bushman]

For anyone interested is seeing how simple it is to make a wireless temp sensor see this example from Cypress (using 2.4 gHz, but 900 SS is about the same complexity).  http://cypress.rfm.com/products/apnotes/an80201.pdf

[SlowModem]

How else would you propose to Davis that they create an interface. You want USB, someone else wants serial, someone else wants IP. Should they build all three into the console and make the price go higher?

They could make a console with the option of a serial or a usb cable connection.  The purchaser could, if desired, purchase a data logger to plug into that and then into the computer.  The purchaser could, if desired, not purchase a data logger, and connect the console to the computer.

If that were the case, I would have purchased a serial cable console, and connected it to the computer without the data logger, and been many dollars ahead.

[DaculaWeather]

But the logger is a very important piece. If your computer locks up or quits for whatever reason, you lose data, maybe quite a bit of data. To me the data logger is simply a data backup for those times when the computer is not working, the power is off, or various other reasons the console (or computer) can't talk to the ISS.

Greg, there has to be some type of communications "port" to the console, whether you used a logger or not. What Davis didn't want to do was design a specific type of communications to make that connection, the console was designed to not be protocol specific (well OK, Davis specific) so they didn't have to make different consoles for different connections. I think their concept is great and probably reduces the overall cost of their products in the long run.

I do think they could make it clearer for people that are buying a new station though. This question pops up all the time with people purchasing a new Davis.

As far as piecing together a station... I know a lot of you like to tinker which is great, I just don't have the time (or patience at my advanced age!  ) to go that route. I wanted something that would work flawlessly right out of the box, so I was willing to pay the price for that. I'm am absolutely sure that there are people here that would probably do that and not bat an eye though.

But to say Davis is gouging people is a little harsh.

[Bushman]

They could add SD card support to the console to log data for a couple of bucks. 2 gig SD cards are like 5 bucks now.  How many zillion years of weather data is that??  Logger?  I don't need no proprietary logger. 

[dalecoy]

See - that's the thing.  I personally feel there is little upside in a competing logger.    There is simply  too small a market and it is far too specialized. 

Yep.  So, it's not really productive to complain about how much the Davis loggers cost.  I'm guessing that combined sales are less than 10,000 per year (for instance, there are currently only about 4,125 active WLIP stations).  And Davis clearly has a large marketing advantage, etc.  So, sales of a competing product - even at perhaps a rock-bottom price of $30, would probably not be more than 1,000 units.  At that sales price, the margin would probably be $15 or less per unit.  

Pick your own numbers, of course.

And then there's the software...

Why does the Davis logger cost so much?  Because nobody else could profitably make and sell a competing unit.

[DaculaWeather]

I just added a 16GB micro SD to my webcam for about $30 I think. So yes, they are cheap!  
I'm not saying they couldn't do something different or better. But I do think they did a good job with what they did do. Plus, the datalogger does more than log data, it's also the communications controller between the PC and the console.

Like I said, I just don't think it's fair to say they are gouging people. It's simply the design route they chose, for whatever reason (and I'm sure it was a well thought out reason that we're not privy to). They didn't ask us when they designed it!   AND... I'd be willing to bet they already have more designs on the drawing board.

[Bushman]

...
And then there's the software...

And we can see how Davis  has abdicated that space to WD, Cumulus etc.  But I'm really happy with WL so I can't complain.

[SLOweather]

See - that's the thing.  I personally feel there is little upside in a competing logger.    There is simply  too small a market and it is far too specialized.  What makes a whole lot more sense to me is to sell aftermarket sensors.  The spec and protocol is published and the RF devices are extremely cheap - about $20 bucks if you use Maxstream and a whole lot less if you use some other foreign brand.  Use simple 1-Wire sensors and it is very cheap. I think you could make your own remote temp device  and sell them very, very  profitably for about half of what Davis charges. 

Then do it. I want to see the final product. You've been teasing us with how easy this is for months.

[dalecoy]

...
And then there's the software...

And we can see how Davis  has abdicated that space to WD, Cumulus etc.  But I'm really happy with WL so I can't complain.

Yes.  My point was that - if someone else manufactured a competing data logger - they would also have to consider the software issue, as part of the sales strategy. 

Of course, they could package in a CD with one of the "free" software packages, with consequent issues (ethics, donations, etc.).  Or just tell people where they could get software, or .....

[Bushman]

The free software thing is done all the time with radio control flight sims.  The HW is bundled with "freeware".

[Bushman]

See - that's the thing.  I personally feel there is little upside in a competing logger.    There is simply  too small a market and it is far too specialized.  What makes a whole lot more sense to me is to sell aftermarket sensors.  The spec and protocol is published and the RF devices are extremely cheap - about $20 bucks if you use Maxstream and a whole lot less if you use some other foreign brand.  Use simple 1-Wire sensors and it is very cheap. I think you could make your own remote temp device  and sell them very, very  profitably for about half of what Davis charges. 

Then do it. I want to see the final product. You've been teasing us with how easy this is for months.

I'm looking at this right now.  Can't decide if I want to do it domestically or go offshore.  I will likely get a dev kit for about $200 and get it going for myself.  You are aware of course that Davis actually approves of such things, right??

[johnd]

You are aware of course that Davis actually approves of such things, right??

I can't quite make out whether this is meant to be a statement or a question. I think the situation is that Davis are happy (courtesy of their 'Empowered by Davis' programme) with third-party products that extend the capabilities/feature-set and hence appeal of the stations, but draw the line at hardware products that might compete head-on with any of their own existing products.

Remember what happened a few years back and the last time that someone tried to release a clone of the VP/VP2 logger - Davis made it quite clear that they didn't approve of the product. And, while I'm not privy to exactly what might have gone on behind the scenes in tems of legal action and otherwise, the practical upshot was that it didn't last long in the marletplace. Admittedly this was a clone logger (but with doubled memory IIRC) rather than an independently reverse-engineered product but I'd suggest that the Davis view on this category of product was fairly clear-cut.

[Bushman]

I was not aware of the previous clone.  WIll have to try to find out more.

As for "Empowered by Davis", that is what I was getting at.  Davis has HUGE holes in its product line that a third party (like maybe moi!) could fill.  I have no interest in a rain bucket for instance, but I know there is a market for small indoor sensors, pool/hot tub sensors etc.  Maybe even an intrinsically safe (Class 1 - Div 1) sensor.

And I really doubt they'd have a leg to stand on if you released a compatible sensor - so long as you did not illegally reverse engineer a sensor.

[johnd]

I was not aware of the previous clone.  WIll have to try to find out more.

...

And I really doubt they'd have a leg to stand on if you released a compatible sensor - so long as you did not illegally reverse engineer a sensor.

Try doing a search for BlueWave in conjunction with some relevant logger term. And I agree, I'm not sure that the legal situation is clearcut. But the sort of thing that happens is that often the best way of marketing this sort of product is with the aid of an established Davis dealer, but who are then potentially vulnerable in theory to being leant on. I'm not suggesting for a second that this would necessarily happen, merely that in practice the process of actually commercializing a product can expose weaknesses in the marketing operation.

Personally I'd have thought it might be best to steer clear of head-on competitive products - there's plenty of scope for other products that genuinely do add value to the Davis range. For instance one of the things that we often get enquiries for is the ability to interface non-Davis sensors of all sorts (eg water level gauges, flow meters and eg voltage and current sensors more generally) into a Davis wireless system. I might be looking for instance how easy it might be to interface a 12/24v  signal to a 6345 transmitter - maybe replacing a soil moisture sensor - so that 12/24v battery condition (powering a remote installation for instance) could be monitored.

[mackbig]

Bushman,
If you build it, they will come.

I will order up 3 indoor friendly thermo/hygros.  Pools already covered.

Size matters

Less than for price, but a combo of both would be cool.

Andrew

[wuhu_software]

I would be very interested in an inexpensive, compatible, indoor temperature and humidity sensors that run off a couple of lithium AA batteries.

What would be really cool is to somehow transmit room presence using infrared sensors as well. This could lead to all kinds of other markets like energy management.

This sounds like a good nitch market compared to reverse engineering the loggers.

Let alone the legal issues, as soon as someone has a failed console, you can bet your bottom dollar they will assume it was the logger that caused the problem even if that is not the case.

[Bushman]

...
Size matters
...

LOL   

I am thinking that the sensors would be 2"x2" by 3/4 thick.  Is that too small?

BTW,. humidity sensors would be much more expensive than temp or IR  (motion) sensors.  The one I'm looking at runs about 20 bucks for the sensor alone!  that is many times the cost of the RF unit.

[wuhu_software]

You could find an inexpensive temp and humidity IC.

Here is one:

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8227

I am sure there are cheaper ones out there.

Perhaps you could offer a basic temperature unit then have the ability to add on humidity and infrared using jumpers?

This could be pretty cool as I have shopped around for a long time to find something decent. Inovonics sells some interesting 900Mhz products but with the ease of use of the Davis units, along with the capability to have plug and play repeaters, this solution would be ideal.

[Bushman]

Thanks but at 30 bucks per piece the cost goes up exponentially.  I think a temp only unit makes the best starting point since the console records indoor humidity.

[wuhu_software]

Thanks but at 30 bucks per piece the cost goes up exponentially.  I think a temp only unit makes the best starting point since the console records indoor humidity.

Depending on the market, people are willing to pay an extra $60 if it provides them with the data they need.

We can discuss a potential market off the list if you want.

wuhu_software at yahoo.com