Author Topic: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed  (Read 5895 times)

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Offline Dennis Rogers

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Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« on: February 12, 2016, 02:47:57 PM »
I did see ages ago someone wanting to know how the Ambient records wind speed and how it records this during the 16 sec period.

What it does is records the wind speed and gust during that time and uses takes the averages of both wind and gust over that period and you see it on your console as an average of both.

So in effect your not seeing real wind gusts and wind but the average over the 16 sec time frame.

Think my Davis gives real wind and wind gusts every 2.5 secs and gives a 2 min and 10 min average also.

They say the Davis does not miss wind gusts, but mine does and no not missing any radio packets or communication.

So wonder who has the best method?

The problem with the Ambient is only 2.2 mph or 3.4 kph accuracy but maybe this is due to the averaging method used as the wind speed goes down to .1

The Davis, I think off hand is accurate to 1 mph or I think 1.6kph, maybe someone knows the exact figures?

While the Ambient is not giving you real wind speed but an average one and working right through the full 16 secs, is this method better and lose less info?
 Or the Davis setup giving real wind speed? But notice my Vue does still miss wind gusts but giving a more true not average wind speed and gusts?

Something to think about?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 02:51:47 PM by denodan »

Offline Bushman

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Offline Dennis Rogers

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2016, 03:24:48 PM »
Interesting 1 mph resolution and a slight better accuracy in wind speed 2mph.

Seems the Ambient has the better wind resolution goes down to .1 mph or kph.


http://www.ambientweather.com/amws1000wifi.html
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 03:26:42 PM by denodan »

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2016, 04:13:19 PM »
Quote
Seems the Ambient has the better wind resolution goes down to .1 mph or kph.
Assuming your numbers for accuracy and resolution (I haven't checked any of these) and a 5 km/h wind;
The Davis (if the accuracy is +/- 3 km/h) would record: 2, or 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 km/h
The Ambient (if the accuracy is +/- 3.4 km/h) would record: 1.6 or 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, 2.0 and on... to 8.3, 8.4 km/h.
 
Now can you see the importance, or lack of, the resolution?
 
Paul

Offline CW2274

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2016, 04:17:07 PM »
Interesting 1 mph resolution and a slight better accuracy in wind speed 2mph.

Seems the Ambient has the better wind resolution goes down to .1 mph or kph.


http://www.ambientweather.com/amws1000wifi.html
The resolution is software dependent. I use WL and it will only show to 1 mph. My neighbors VP2 uses meteobridge and his displays down to 0.1 mph.

Offline mikemm

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 04:57:20 PM »
So the *truth* about how the Fine Offset WH24 sensor module (aka Ambient 1xxx clones) detects wind speed, then how the console interprets that data, is not as indicated above, and is actually worse than expected.

I have an Ambient 1200 clone version:  the Fine Offset WH24 sensor module, a Fine Offset indoor sensor module, a Meteobridge & Meteostick, and a Fine Offset color TTF Console. 

Since I can SSH into the Meteobridge, I can intercept the actual bytes being sent out of the WH24 sensor module.  Based on work done by others and posted online for earlier versions of Fine Offset sensors, several months ago I reverse-engineered the meaning of all 16 bytes of data sent out by the WH24.  Was not too hard, and now I have a small spreadsheet I can cut-and-paste the true-raw bytes into, and get all the metric and imperial results as would be shown on the Console, or the Meteobridge, or the IPobserver.

So today I took my weather station offline, brought down the WH24 sensor, and did some direct testing of how the anemometer actually is measuring windspeed.  When one spins the anemometer by hand, you can hear the click of the reed switch as the magnet spins on top of it.  So one can easily hand-spin the anemometer, and count the number of clicks heard.

First I looked at the "average windspeed" sensor.  Looking at the raw bytes, my initial guess was that it is:  the quantity of revolutions of the anemometer in the 16 second interval.  However, I was somewhat shocked to find that its actually and only:  the quantity of revolutions in the last 8 seconds of the 16 second interval; and all revolutions in the first 8 seconds are ignored.  I tested this quite thoroughly, doing the below a number of times using different rates of spin of the anemometer:
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer *only* in the first 8 seconds of the 16 second interval, the sensor always reported 0 revolutions aka 0 windspeed no matter how many clicks of the reed switch I heard.
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer after first letting 8 second elapse with no spin, the sensor reported as revolutions the exact quantity of clicks I heard from the reed switch.
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer briefly in the first 8 seconds while counting the clicks, then again briefly in the second 8 seconds while counting again the clicks, the reported quantity of revolutions from the sensor was ONLY the clicks from the final 8 seconds.
So the "average windspeed" is even less accurate than supposed from the WH24.  We are getting wind readings from effectively half the 24 hour period:  8 seconds ignored then 8 seconds measured then 8 seconds ignored, and so on.   If you get a brief wind in the first 8 seconds of the 16 second interval, then dead air, the average windspeed sensor will report 0 wind speed for the entire 16-second interval. 

And average windspeed is measured very simply:  it is just the quantity of revolutions in the final 8 second measurement period.  It does not matter if the anemometer spins fast and slows down in the 8 second measurement period, or if the anemometer has a constant spin in the 8 second period; it is just the count of the reed switch clicks in that 8 second period.


Next I looked at the "gust windspeed" sensor.  When decoding the bytes, the conversion factor from revs/sec to windspeed (in MPH or m/s) for wind gusts is exactly 8 times larger than the conversion factor for the average windspeed.  So my initial guess was the sensor was measuring the largest number of revolutions out of eight 2-second periods; in 16 seconds it would have 8 measures and keeps the largest value.  However, my initial guess was wrong.  The gust windspeed sensor is actually measured very simply:  it is just the largest quantity of revolutions (reed switch clicks) of the anemometer seen in any one of the eight final 1-second periods in the larger 16-second interval; the initial eight 1-second periods are ignored.

The gust windspeed on the WH24 ignores the first 8 seconds of the 16 second interval:
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer *only* in the first 8 seconds of the 16 second interval, the sensor always reported 0 gust windspeed.
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer after first letting 8 second elapse with no spin, the sensor reported a gust windspeed.
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer slowly in the first 8 seconds, then very fast in the second 8 seconds, the reported gust windspeed had a high value.
  • If I hand-spun the anemometer very fast in the first 8 seconds, then slow in the second 8 seconds, the reported gust windspeed had a low value.
So the gust windspeed suffers from the same "missing half the day" problem as the "average windspeed".  If you get a brief gust in the first 8 seconds of the 16 second interval, then dead air, the gust windspeed sensor will report 0 wind speed for the entire 16-second interval. 

And the gust windspeed is not an average ... its the largest spin rate-per-second observed, but only in the final 8 one-second intervals of the entire 16 second interval.  I did quite a bit of testing for this, doing controlled slow then fast or none then fast, or fast then fast spins of the anemometer in that final 8 seconds.  Empirically I observed that the largest quantity of reed switch clicks (revolutions) was being reported by the gust windspeed sensor, not some kind of average.

And given the characteristics of the anemometer (its diameter, cup size, etc), it turns out that one revolution per one second equates to 1.1 meters/second of airspeed (2.46 MPH).  This is why you will never see a reported gust windspeed less than 1.1 m/s, and why the reported gust windspeeds are always a multiple of 1.1 m/s.  The average windspeed is measured over 8 seconds rather than one second, and so it has 8-times the "resolution", or will increment in multiples of 0.14 m/s (0.3 MPH).

I hope this helps all understand the limitations of what the sensor actually reports to software like the Console, IPobserver, or Meteobridge.  That software post-processes those actual sensor measurements, performing generally more averaging of the data.  But in keeping the cost low for the sensor module, the tradeoff is the actual accuracy of the measurement technique used for the windspeed sensing.  Its just a hobbyist weather station, and gives decent results.  But if you are looking for absolute accuracy and high resolution of windspeed and other measures, well the WH24 has its limitations.

I do hope some others will repeat this physical testing of the WH24 sensor module to confirm or refute my results.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:05:13 AM by mikemm »
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Offline Mapantz

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 05:16:36 PM »
.. either way, I've found the 1001 to be more fun and more informative (regarding wind readings) than I ever did on my old Vue. The 1001 can be called 'cheap' 'worse' or whatever, yes it is cheaper than some stations, but I paid a lot of money for a Vue that constantly under-read wind speeds.


Offline Stormtracker

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 03:27:53 PM »
Ambient claims that their outdoor sensor contains a microprocessor which monitors wind speed constantly and sends a packet to the display every 16 seconds.  That packet reports the highest wind speed during the time between the 16 second packets-- supposedly...  I have never had this station, but my VUE has a packet sent every 2.5 seconds.  I do not know the accuracy of Ambient's claim, but I strongly suspect that my VUE misses storm wind gusts which leads me to believe that, in reality, a "snapshot" of wind speed readings is taken as the packet is sent, thereby missing any wind data between packets.   Anyone know the truth about this wireless phenomenon?

Offline creeble

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 09:25:25 PM »
I have an Ambient 1200 clone version:  the Fine Offset WH24 sensor module, a Fine Offset indoor sensor module, a Meteobridge & Meteostick, and a Fine Offset color TTF Console. 

Hi Mike -- I have a question or two about your research.

It sounds like you're getting your data directly from the Meteostick, not the ObserverIP module -- correct?  If so, it also sounds like the Meteostick is subject to the 8/16s sampling interval of the WH24, which is the same for the ObserverIP module.

I was hoping (as I expect you were) that the WH24 actually sends more data over the air (915MHz) than what we see coming out the http request side of the ObserverIP -- but it sounds like that's not the case.  It sounds like the WH24 does all of its sampling within the sensor system itself, and then just reports that data over 900MHz to the Meteostick or ObserverIP module, where it is too late to get any better update frequency or resolution.

Is that correct?

I was about to order a Meteostick on the hope that I could get finer-grained info from the sensor array, but it doesn't sound like that's going to work.

Offline mikemm

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 02:45:04 AM »
Sorry for the delay in responding.  I also collect biometric/quantified self data and I've been writing some Android and iOS apps to support that "hobby" too :)

Indeed, I have a Meteobridge with its Meteostick (aka the WeatherBridge/AirBridge as the Ambient reseller has rebranded it).

So, on the receiver side (whether its an ObserverIP or a Meteobridge or whatever) ... these devices are CONTINUOUSLY listening for a transmit burst from the sensor.  The receiver-side of this is not bound or limited to the 8 sec or 16 sec or whatever's sampling interval.  Its the sensor package that determines the sampling interval, not the receiver software and hardware.

Now I don't have a frequency sniffer to monitor the airwaves that Fine Offset's WH24 is broadcasting on.  So I don't know for sure whether WH24 is constantly broadcasting or just sends a burst.  Note that continuous broadcasting is a drain on the batteries, so I'm betting that the Fine Offset developers of the WH24 sensor package choose to send out a burst rather than constant broadcast purely as a battery saving tradeoff.

And the LED on the Meteostick is not constantly flashing.  It just flashes once every 16 seconds.  So again, I'm pretty sure the WH24 only sends out one burst every 16 seconds.

To answer your other question, I have seen the true raw data coming out of the Meteostick before the Meteobridge gets ahold of it and processes it.  Based upon work done by others on earlier Fine Offset sensor packages, I've fully decoded what is included in that burst.  There is no extra data in that burst that is not shown, and there are no intermediate bursts that are being ignored.

Personally since I'm a software developer, I like the Meteobridge and Meteostick over the ObserverIP simply because the Meteobridge is more powerful, and I can customize it some.  For example, my Meteobridge also dynamically controls setting in my Weather Camera on a daily basis.  And my Meteobridge automatically emails me detailed weather data packages every 15 minutes that I automatically import into a master Excel spreadsheet.  I can also extract the weather data in real-time (which I at times do during heavy rainstorms to monitor the rate of rainfall according to my own algorithms.

So in summary, if you want more accurate weather data, and a smaller interval, you are going to have to invest in a more expensive sensor package.  The receivers have no say about what data gets sent to them, how often that data gets sent, nor how accurate that data is ... its the sensor package that is the key, not the receiver system.
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Offline creeble

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 12:44:02 PM »
Hi, thanks very much for your reply.

I'm reasonably happy with the 16s reporting interval, and I've been accumulating the data on my own server before sending it to WU.  I'm looking at some simple displays / graphs that would make the a data a little more useful for my own use; something like a last-15-minute wind speed average for example.

I'm curious if you or anyone has an opinion on how accurate the wind speed is from th Fine Offset sensor - I am tempted to stick it out my car sunroof to calibrate! But now that we've had some serious July wind here in San Francisco, I'm pleased to see that the sensor can register speeds in excess of 30mph, which some sensors (notably some of the older Oregon Scientific) won't do.

Offline mikemm

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2016, 10:59:17 PM »
From my own experience, I think most people's problems with wind speed and wind direction have more to do with the placement of their sensor package than any accuracy issues with the package itself.  Mounting a wind speed/direction sensor say on top of a house inherently distorts the readings because as air "hits" the house it has to flow both around it and above it, which both slows the air and creates turbulence.  So wind direction will be erratic and wind speed will seem slow.

The only proper way to place a wind sensor is high-up on a freestanding pole with no surrounding obstructions 360 degrees nearby.  Of course, for most of us (me included) that is unachievable, so you just have to accept the fact that our readings have some error in them.

The WH24 sensor package does have pretty small anemometer cups, so that too will be a factor.  Under real extreme wind, the anemometer is going to be inaccurate because there is growing "backpressure" on the rounded-out side of the cups to slow them down even as the rounded-in side is trying to increase the rotation speed. 

A rotating cup system will never be utterly accurate especially at higher wind speeds; a vane anemometer is more accurate though it does have to rotate to always be pointing at the wind source direction to achieve that accuracy.  The Wikipedia page on anemometer's has a good overview of other alternatives that have greater accuracy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemometer
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Offline creeble

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Re: Found out how the Ambient records wind speed
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 10:50:41 AM »
Thanks, Mike -- that wikipedia page is really informative.

 

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